From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBCo29znBBoEEQxYZg@googlegroups.com Wed Dec 01 21:25:11 2010 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PO1fH-0004sF-16; Wed, 01 Dec 2010 21:25:11 -0800 Received: by gxk19 with SMTP id 19sf6417301gxk.16 for ; Wed, 01 Dec 2010 21:25:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=gpX2s3x/fON5qnxwHA/SNjO0dxNZipwDylgdmuRoNlE=; b=NURCbRwt5jAwr1dWoHUwI3zzvml/8EqgzvjnkgT+MYlrR3JyrfiCcERJqOxSPXDA7X apAQuC4fBt4dprIDpT64cBPauBLQwe/K9YpA3u1Ddm7T/+TyDMibNzL2S42BmdkWe3CA qjBz9v9cWXXYvIJomXPUTvE+Tv/nXqg5YzU0A= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=1BFb5TtQqobEQwWJ1onlDEzHys9+EhXp35wEEK/slbGbid421cTIR/EQJcKwBLApAa GQ7QCPqpazKn0b1ywnP1Tg4iIY40bJbjsdxds2uL8S/POa/Il3As5TPVCablRpUy5v2j E8n2n1AcP2QxuiTTpprLObRA59xKgqa1LBvMQ= Received: by 10.100.206.15 with SMTP id d15mr2982ang.7.1291267496439; Wed, 01 Dec 2010 21:24:56 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.76.225 with SMTP id d33ls3301866ibk.2.p; Wed, 01 Dec 2010 21:24:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.35.131 with SMTP id p3mr3359492ibd.11.1291267495730; Wed, 01 Dec 2010 21:24:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.35.131 with SMTP id p3mr3359490ibd.11.1291267495459; Wed, 01 Dec 2010 21:24:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iw0-f175.google.com (mail-iw0-f175.google.com [209.85.214.175]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id m30si40908ibu.6.2010.12.01.21.24.54; Wed, 01 Dec 2010 21:24:54 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.175 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.175; Received: by iwn8 with SMTP id 8so6968869iwn.34 for ; Wed, 01 Dec 2010 21:24:54 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.12.73 with SMTP id w9mr9893781ibw.95.1291267494299; Wed, 01 Dec 2010 21:24:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.199.206 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Dec 2010 21:24:54 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <659354.26852.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <604115.16202.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <752705.36302.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <822423.65423.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <605319.19000.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <433664.89554.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <906301.34622.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <306693.13766.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <144450.19864.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <132939.86626.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <886986.39526.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <476795.46183.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <435142.54831.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <194237.46033.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <944795.22261.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 00:24:54 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.175 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00032557364a4ed556049666a47c --00032557364a4ed556049666a47c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 so, in summary, craig. I would I be correct in saying that you agree with dai and pei, but are leary of da'ai? On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 11:07 PM, Craig Daniel wrote: > On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 10:22 PM, Luke Bergen > wrote: > > I'm confused. Could you define precisely what makes something "logical". > > It seems like I keep hearing things of the form "you're trying to do X > and > > that's not logical". But what exactly do you mean by that? If I use > > something other than a bridi to express a relationship, does that > > automatically mean that it's not logical? Do all relationships HAVE to > be > > made of bridi? Who says? > > I believe what he means is this: > > In Lojban, we can express propositions through a structure based on > predicate logic. That structure is the bridi. We also have structures > in the language that are not derived from any type of formal logic, > and are in that sense not "logical." > > John Clifford's argument (with which I basically am in agreement) is > that, to be in keeping with the stated design principles underlying > Lojban (and inherited from and in this instance I believe more > strongly present in Loglan), non-logical structures cannot be used to > express propositions. > > Applying this to the matter at hand, the following piece I believe to > be uncontroversial: ".ui" has no truth value, and so cannot be wrong, > even though it can be said by an unhappy person and means an > expression of happiness. Similarly, ".uidai" does not actually imply > the proposition that somebody other than the speaker is happy, even > though it would not be said sincerely by a speaker who does not feel > that they are empathizing with somebody happy. This is because neither > one is propositional. This is also why, although you can disagree with > somebody else's bridi and negate it with a simple "na go'i," there is > no way to negate another person's UI-expressions - though you can > express your own opinions about their emotional state, either as > assertions (".uicai broda" ".i do na gleki") or, possibly, by > empathizing with the emotion you perceive behind their apparently > insincere expression (".uicai broda" ".uinaidai"). > > However, I can see no easy way to define "da'ai" such that it does not > contain anything propositional, because the speaker is commenting on > observations they have made which can themselves be incorrect - that > is, it is *inherently* possible to say ".uida'ai" and be wrong. (I > gather others - namely the proponents of "da'ai" - probably disagree > here; I suspect John does not.) > > As regards "pei," I may be mistaken but I believe John is of the > opinion that answers to questions are always propositional and thus > there is no way to answer a "pei" question that shouldn't be a bridi. > Here some disagree with the general principle about questions; it > happens that I do not. However, I do disagree with the conclusion - > "pei" is not IMO a question in some deep formal sense (though we call > it one due to the fuzzy semantics of the English word "question"), but > a request; it asks the listener to respond with an expression that > lacks propositional force, and so asks for information only > pragmatically. In this way, it does not IMO attempt anything of the > sort Lojban insists on handling logically, and so the fact that it is > non-logical in nature is entirely consistent with Lojban's heritage. > > - mi'e .kreig. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --00032557364a4ed556049666a47c Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable so, in summary, craig. =A0I would I be correct in saying that you agree wit= h dai and pei, but are leary of da'ai?

On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 11:07 PM, Craig Daniel <craigbdaniel@gmail.com>= wrote:
On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 10= :22 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeaberge= n@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm confused. =A0Could you define precisely what makes something &= quot;logical".
> =A0It seems like I keep hearing things of the form "you're tr= ying to do X and
> that's not logical". =A0But what exactly do you mean by that?= =A0If I use
> something other than a bridi to express a relationship, does that
> automatically mean that it's not logical? =A0Do all relationships = HAVE to be
> made of bridi? =A0Who says?

I believe what he means is this:

In Lojban, we can express propositions through a structure based on
predicate logic. That structure is the bridi. We also have structures
in the language that are not derived from any type of formal logic,
and are in that sense not "logical."

John Clifford's argument (with which I basically am in agreement) is that, to be in keeping with the stated design principles underlying
Lojban (and inherited from and in this instance I believe more
strongly present in Loglan), non-logical structures cannot be used to
express propositions.

Applying this to the matter at hand, the following piece I believe to
be uncontroversial: ".ui" has no truth value, and so cannot be wr= ong,
even though it can be said by an unhappy person and means an
expression of happiness. Similarly, ".uidai" does not actually im= ply
the proposition that somebody other than the speaker is happy, even
though it would not be said sincerely by a speaker who does not feel
that they are empathizing with somebody happy. This is because neither
one is propositional. This is also why, although you can disagree with
somebody else's bridi and negate it with a simple "na go'i,&qu= ot; there is
no way to negate another person's UI-expressions - though you can
express your own opinions about their emotional state, either as
assertions (".uicai broda" ".i do na gleki") or, possib= ly, by
empathizing with the emotion you perceive behind their apparently
insincere expression (".uicai broda" ".uinaidai").

However, I can see no easy way to define "da'ai" such that it= does not
contain anything propositional, because the speaker is commenting on
observations they have made which can themselves be incorrect - that
is, it is *inherently* possible to say ".uida'ai" and be wron= g. (I
gather others - namely the proponents of "da'ai" - probably d= isagree
here; I suspect John does not.)

As regards "pei," I may be mistaken but I believe John is of the<= br> opinion that answers to questions are always propositional and thus
there is no way to answer a "pei" question that shouldn't be = a bridi.
Here some disagree with the general principle about questions; it
happens that I do not. However, I do disagree with the conclusion -
"pei" is not IMO a question in some deep formal sense (though we = call
it one due to the fuzzy semantics of the English word "question")= , but
a request; it asks the listener to respond with an expression that
lacks propositional force, and so asks for information only
pragmatically. In this way, it does not IMO attempt anything of the
sort Lojban insists on handling logically, and so the fact that it is
non-logical in nature is entirely consistent with Lojban's heritage.
=A0- mi'e .kreig.

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For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.


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