From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRDfsd7nBBoEcQwtpA@googlegroups.com Thu Dec 02 05:02:43 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PO8nx-0003Ou-Kz; Thu, 02 Dec 2010 05:02:42 -0800 Received: by ywh1 with SMTP id 1sf6803016ywh.16 for ; Thu, 02 Dec 2010 05:02:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=SxGlgJnCigi0XZGXXzdWZrBd5qZLLradcb+AMnefrx8=; b=Aq/xvPCPVco0B/X+uSe8KdCSTf3qigTwxBUwxnhctNth/eEquZJ9zSONAxAVzqE0vG uaxCJ9n1HJnGHdimqlLrVrH1DRkMPTdk/3RY18XfdbhK6JlVOupTxxSs253C/D2iMa5x folcJlWyAin/iHjwttq2pEOVDt+n/jo3q8Uv8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=cx1MgLG4Wzr4ipI5Wgo40gUZx8qmKFHrsJiAsIf48GAUkbB63RIv3s4yXS1NA5BMXM HcvzLEQIRzguB4gpFXsHgROYkln7k8KbvSXn+//oxf/8frPIfYlbOJ1BzaK5rzscXvqu iCOlARMeoAOlA2CYTGIsRYXGJChPM6wTTcjHs= Received: by 10.150.174.42 with SMTP id w42mr71432ybe.17.1291294943063; Thu, 02 Dec 2010 05:02:23 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.151.135.18 with SMTP id m18ls5179778ybn.1.p; Thu, 02 Dec 2010 05:02:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.151.114.18 with SMTP id r18mr160682ybm.45.1291294942479; Thu, 02 Dec 2010 05:02:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.151.114.18 with SMTP id r18mr160681ybm.45.1291294942454; Thu, 02 Dec 2010 05:02:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.118]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id w3si123516ybe.5.2010.12.02.05.02.21; Thu, 02 Dec 2010 05:02:21 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.118 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.118; Received: (qmail 51462 invoked by uid 60001); 2 Dec 2010 13:02:21 -0000 Message-ID: <920969.50733.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: mU68aMsVM1nfWf9ax.acOWAe3uMASZqh7WEmQJ4WjTG2NiX PbJOEsIw8XkopcIxpjEdmgTYJACHPPpEqIp2a.d_fKC210PneEGYpx0z2nAP u1GOx9OQ4XjR7m9ZyR23ZuEQb8A0CM7UxKTsor5zDNMiJFd0PixzKXh1ODAf VnofqJVkdXFfCVlPkGvD3m31p0.sQAXLoRFnGq5kWCQPac._CzQ84FVikdQ8 8Jqj7_0_WKPoffcwEIj7__9oKgHFS4Ue8z2ue93Xyu7VI80m71OqV6I19vVx Mz4Q8Cd1ANpwSy56fRqpnB5Q07PzYB1wAEW1ztFMmI1lYKpJ70RmALQIfU1Q biHSjFw01hyupcrH88mciAkm5PDfcUQ-- Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 02 Dec 2010 05:02:20 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/553 YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.285259 References: <659354.26852.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <604115.16202.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <752705.36302.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <822423.65423.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <605319.19000.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <433664.89554.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <906301.34622.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <306693.13766.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <144450.19864.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <132939.86626.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <886986.39526.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <476795.46183.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <435142.54831.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <194237.46033.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <944795.22261.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 05:02:20 -0800 (PST) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.118 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 What he says, though I have come to allow the legitimacy of 'uipei' and its response and of 'da'ai' under the abbreviation clause. I still think they are misleading, but probably useful. ----- Original Message ---- From: Craig Daniel To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Wed, December 1, 2010 10:07:18 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 10:22 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > I'm confused. Could you define precisely what makes something "logical". > It seems like I keep hearing things of the form "you're trying to do X and > that's not logical". But what exactly do you mean by that? If I use > something other than a bridi to express a relationship, does that > automatically mean that it's not logical? Do all relationships HAVE to be > made of bridi? Who says? I believe what he means is this: In Lojban, we can express propositions through a structure based on predicate logic. That structure is the bridi. We also have structures in the language that are not derived from any type of formal logic, and are in that sense not "logical." John Clifford's argument (with which I basically am in agreement) is that, to be in keeping with the stated design principles underlying Lojban (and inherited from and in this instance I believe more strongly present in Loglan), non-logical structures cannot be used to express propositions. Applying this to the matter at hand, the following piece I believe to be uncontroversial: ".ui" has no truth value, and so cannot be wrong, even though it can be said by an unhappy person and means an expression of happiness. Similarly, ".uidai" does not actually imply the proposition that somebody other than the speaker is happy, even though it would not be said sincerely by a speaker who does not feel that they are empathizing with somebody happy. This is because neither one is propositional. This is also why, although you can disagree with somebody else's bridi and negate it with a simple "na go'i," there is no way to negate another person's UI-expressions - though you can express your own opinions about their emotional state, either as assertions (".uicai broda" ".i do na gleki") or, possibly, by empathizing with the emotion you perceive behind their apparently insincere expression (".uicai broda" ".uinaidai"). However, I can see no easy way to define "da'ai" such that it does not contain anything propositional, because the speaker is commenting on observations they have made which can themselves be incorrect - that is, it is *inherently* possible to say ".uida'ai" and be wrong. (I gather others - namely the proponents of "da'ai" - probably disagree here; I suspect John does not.) As regards "pei," I may be mistaken but I believe John is of the opinion that answers to questions are always propositional and thus there is no way to answer a "pei" question that shouldn't be a bridi. Here some disagree with the general principle about questions; it happens that I do not. However, I do disagree with the conclusion - "pei" is not IMO a question in some deep formal sense (though we call it one due to the fuzzy semantics of the English word "question"), but a request; it asks the listener to respond with an expression that lacks propositional force, and so asks for information only pragmatically. In this way, it does not IMO attempt anything of the sort Lojban insists on handling logically, and so the fact that it is non-logical in nature is entirely consistent with Lojban's heritage. - mi'e .kreig. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.