From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCPyODnBBoEgi4QBw@googlegroups.com Thu Dec 02 14:56:30 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1POI4g-0002uY-Gw; Thu, 02 Dec 2010 14:56:29 -0800 Received: by ywh1 with SMTP id 1sf7165432ywh.16 for ; Thu, 02 Dec 2010 14:56:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=58BBRpDspuy5uTM+VCYjRUflL+fvG27r3MHdxpmtkuc=; b=eFYwUQXv9ALWhKJnvh4KRUzJXudkeEN0bJ9kX+EPanYLeZWSIJfNWOKtjDe+e+MB8R J6qXHiA5MYvkYvEeZg0yX+2X7XyIxDrcQ8uTSkAsIP1ooqOdKo7BYLkH94OykhE6EhAl EAmI9ekQdr2ZxVkJG/4Mw903V+AV2hrkNThIw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=BQvoxQKSqpwcHjx6AX2e/vNUclnby8+VdTZtco7Vn0d1+5nJAoxGRVaXSyrDYQJs82 NdEdw1IBZEMZTs6VQa2cAS+k4fCUGvvj4dIWSmBq6UP319R/IsQblx5qnAjuSEbc11Z9 49KwUTEszuEDmQGUI/bXgaZyoFsO2UXF387jY= Received: by 10.91.50.18 with SMTP id c18mr104763agk.41.1291330575863; Thu, 02 Dec 2010 14:56:15 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.91.172.9 with SMTP id z9ls2218371ago.7.p; Thu, 02 Dec 2010 14:56:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.90.88.4 with SMTP id l4mr550707agb.1.1291330575133; Thu, 02 Dec 2010 14:56:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.90.88.4 with SMTP id l4mr550706agb.1.1291330575043; Thu, 02 Dec 2010 14:56:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.119]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id a62si168164yhc.14.2010.12.02.14.56.13; Thu, 02 Dec 2010 14:56:14 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.119 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.119; Received: (qmail 3781 invoked by uid 60001); 2 Dec 2010 22:56:13 -0000 Message-ID: <515525.3316.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: 6VxlgWUVM1m5GzufneOpU1zlh74jTJdzK4zefmvNrTs_nDz Pxg9XLTJnXwD4afqH9fJIGgMj3.uDDgPyf9o2a9Yqd27Y5QVgZ8m.rQw1e2J _BW7QBP1ldjOw25OcYP50Q02CfuO9Qu4y0qYhsBGT7xMPaNml.JytY5JH9Yc WxvQGMswTfzUXr5eb07mvXqbv72bhec_SQjmvoKcqPrSmcaFpO_uIe.xeQQb wa7L3WGr2XSvy9e4PLFj.Yvv7dZXnK.MB4N2F60obdlroossP9_Le1Wmta9f vCysWjPXJmJFRusVDkl1vt.5POsO9o5g4KQs8MFzSa7MM9fTsVgL85gA4IFm M_cq1V9WzsOYRqrWuxA_.8ZtMx8CFSj5E5GyMsN6144.2z0iCjvgbgNCfNQ- - Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 02 Dec 2010 14:56:12 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/553 YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.285259 References: <659354.26852.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <604115.16202.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <752705.36302.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <822423.65423.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <605319.19000.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <433664.89554.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <906301.34622.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <306693.13766.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <164975.71420.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <575924.12596.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <577940.60375.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <638130.69866.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <685026.21857.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 14:56:12 -0800 (PST) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.119 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable OK, you can think of it that way. I see it as a request for information ab= out=20 your emotional (etc) state and the response a reply say "My emotional state= is=20 ,,," The point is that I can translate the exchange automatically from the= =20 apparently expressive form to the propositional, so it doesn't bother me, e= xcept=20 for the small aesthetic issue. I suppose, if anyone was going to work the= =20 interrelations between Lojban and Logic, these exchanges might be a problem= ,=20 since early steps of such a process might well be shaving off or moving int= o=20 pragmatics the discursives of various sorts and so a little propositional= =20 information might be lost. But that ain't gonna happen, so we can go on us= ing=20 the expressions despite the different interpretation. Oh, there is the=20 false/insincere issue but that has little practical effect. ----- Original Message ---- From: Jorge Llamb=EDas To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Thu, December 2, 2010 4:31:44 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 5:16 PM, John E Clifford wrot= e: > The bridiness of 'pei' and its answer is not > a sticking point but a place where I am still uncomfortable, because it l= ooks > like something it is not (of course, you may think it is what it looks li= ke=20 and > I don't. I don't see any bridiness in "pei". It has nothing to do with any propositions. It just indicates a request from speaker to listener to express themself in a certain scale. No bridis need be involved on the part of either participant. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.