From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBDBwOTnBBoEKCHE8Q@googlegroups.com Fri Dec 03 08:52:31 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1POYry-0008D4-Km; Fri, 03 Dec 2010 08:52:31 -0800 Received: by gwj17 with SMTP id 17sf4924272gwj.16 for ; Fri, 03 Dec 2010 08:52:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=WuuB2bNvryJGbqmDN1TS6IJ9ZuLMdXfc05ezBFIuclg=; b=HDltamVh3fpWQ0F7lkdL2zqT3CkmRZr+aGRBKKMgpIfd2VUlNpFqBfIgft5+axQo9E wWKeUadu6FTkqPCx4lbVDkrvgCZdQ44Z7iHH3uo/p22CSqzMPdhWOKjhOKhMSRZKX3fT AAr2nrJX+lh7dCdN35bxq6H6y2M7+iHttgpt0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=SWukBttcUPlwbSjkLGafsMn4WmKKkRoroxCJYp+fyQil2FRt7wJAMPtuepDDSFLesC RWiM0Ky2QXfnyLexSwYWxapJtgnCNdo/SW7Kjfk7eMvX6SLsuNS5c31346iDe1ggx5jK fvLFfHvyGheIgRp5l9abMP4fPwTr7FgkSiVX0= Received: by 10.91.84.2 with SMTP id m2mr164834agl.15.1291395137222; Fri, 03 Dec 2010 08:52:17 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.91.18.19 with SMTP id v19ls2428261agi.6.p; Fri, 03 Dec 2010 08:52:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.91.34.33 with SMTP id m33mr820070agj.10.1291395136514; Fri, 03 Dec 2010 08:52:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.91.34.33 with SMTP id m33mr820069agj.10.1291395136438; Fri, 03 Dec 2010 08:52:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-gw0-f45.google.com (mail-gw0-f45.google.com [74.125.83.45]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id z30si319646yhc.0.2010.12.03.08.52.15; Fri, 03 Dec 2010 08:52:15 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.45 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.83.45; Received: by gwj23 with SMTP id 23so3162765gwj.18 for ; Fri, 03 Dec 2010 08:52:15 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.19.74 with SMTP id z10mr2006414iba.120.1291395135126; Fri, 03 Dec 2010 08:52:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.199.206 with HTTP; Fri, 3 Dec 2010 08:52:15 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <8e8d61ff-55bf-40ce-8785-eb9368e6d81a@u3g2000vbj.googlegroups.com> References: <547f2fd5-c8a4-4dec-acee-97412386bf83@f20g2000prn.googlegroups.com> <8e8d61ff-55bf-40ce-8785-eb9368e6d81a@u3g2000vbj.googlegroups.com> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 11:52:15 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Question about apparent inconsistency with "nixli". From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.45 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00221532cd104b3e6a0496845c92 --00221532cd104b3e6a0496845c92 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 There's a whole lot of overlap in the gismu. Why need black if you can just say {tolblabi}? I seem to remember hearing at one point that the gismu were selected based on how useful the idea is to have, and not necessarily to get the best coverage of semantic space. We have like 4 words for "say" that all have subtle distinctions in their meanings, but there is no gismu for cactus. The choice in what concepts should be gismu was selected based on how often it'd be used, not how well it covers the semantic space. Which is why it always confused the hell out of me that there wasn't originally a gismu for "old". On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 11:27 AM, najrut wrote: > It would be impossible to create absolute symmetry in root words. > That's the way modern Esperanto tries to work (doktorino means female > doctor and doktoric^o means male doctor, but in numerous other cases > Esperanto is not logical at all). > But I think it's possible to eliminate nixli and nanla at all. > Aren't "fetyve'a" (fetsi zei verba) and "nakyve'a" (nakni zei verba) > synonyms of those words ? > > Then there can be a simple table. > > fetyve'a = nixli = girl > nakyve'a = nakla = boy > fetytunba = mensi = sister > naktunba = bruna = brother > fetre'a = ninmu = woman > nakre'a = nanmu = man > > Quite easy to remember, isn't it ? > > On Nov 30, 3:18 pm, Pan Mistwood wrote: > > Back when I first dove into learning Lojban, I noticed an apparent > > inconsistency with four gismu. And as far as I can tell, there's no > > reason for it, but I could be mistaken. So, after much > > procrastination, I'm asking about it here. (And as far as I could find > > with Google Web search and a search within this group, it hasn't been > > brought up before, which is rather surprising to me.) > > > > The gismu "nanmu" virtually means the English "man" or, more > > generally, "male humanoid". The gismu "ninmu" virtually means the > > English "woman" or "female humanoid". The gismu "nanla" virtually > > means the English "boy". Now, I understand that they are not preferred > > over the gismu "verba", "remna", and "prenu", but they do exist and > > are recognised as Lojbanic gismu. > > > > From those gismu, I can see a pattern. "nanmu" and "nanla" share "na-" > > while "nanla" and "nanmu" share "-mu". Following this pattern, the > > gismu virtually meaning the English "girl" would be "ninla"; "ni-" as > > in "ninmu" and "-la" as in "nanla". However, the gismu is actually > > "nixli". My question: as "ninla" is valid gismu syntax, is consistent > > with "nanmu", "nanla", and "ninmu", and is not already used to mean > > something else, why is "nixli" used instead? > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --00221532cd104b3e6a0496845c92 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There's a whole lot of overlap in the gismu. =A0Why need black if you c= an just say {tolblabi}?

I seem to remember hearing at on= e point that the gismu were selected based on how useful the idea is to hav= e, and not necessarily to get the best coverage of semantic space. =A0We ha= ve like 4 words for "say" that all have subtle distinctions in th= eir meanings, but there is no gismu for cactus. =A0The choice in what conce= pts should be gismu was selected based on how often it'd be used, not h= ow well it covers the semantic space. =A0Which is why it always confused th= e hell out of me that there wasn't originally a gismu for "old&quo= t;.

On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 11:27 AM, najrut <ruler11post@gmai= l.com> wrote:
It would be impossible to create absolute symmetry in root words.
That's the way modern Esperanto tries to work (doktorino means female doctor and doktoric^o means male doctor, but in numerous other cases
Esperanto is not logical at all).
But I think it's possible to eliminate nixli and nanla at all.
Aren't "fetyve'a" (fetsi zei verba) and "nakyve'= a" (nakni zei verba)
synonyms of those words ?

Then there can be a simple table.

fetyve'a =A0 =A0=3D nixli =A0 =A0 =A0 =3D girl
nakyve'a =A0=3D nakla =A0 =A0 =3D boy
fetytunba =3D mensi =A0 =A0=3D sister
naktunba =3D bruna =A0 =A0=3D brother
fetre'a =A0 =A0 =A0=3D ninmu =A0 =3D woman
nakre'a =A0 =A0=3D nanmu =A0=3D man

Quite easy to remember, isn't it ?

On Nov 30, 3:18 pm, Pan Mistwood <panmistw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Back when I first dove into learning Lojban, I noticed an apparent
> inconsistency with four gismu. And as far as I can tell, there's n= o
> reason for it, but I could be mistaken. So, after much
> procrastination, I'm asking about it here. (And as far as I could = find
> with Google Web search and a search within this group, it hasn't b= een
> brought up before, which is rather surprising to me.)
>
> The gismu "nanmu" virtually means the English "man"= ; or, more
> generally, "male humanoid". The gismu "ninmu" virt= ually means the
> English "woman" or "female humanoid". The gismu &q= uot;nanla" virtually
> means the English "boy". Now, I understand that they are not= preferred
> over the gismu "verba", "remna", and "prenu&q= uot;, but they do exist and
> are recognised as Lojbanic gismu.
>
> From those gismu, I can see a pattern. "nanmu" and "nan= la" share "na-"
> while "nanla" and "nanmu" share "-mu". F= ollowing this pattern, the
> gismu virtually meaning the English "girl" would be "ni= nla"; "ni-" as
> in "ninmu" and "-la" as in "nanla". Howe= ver, the gismu is actually
> "nixli". My question: as "ninla" is valid gismu sy= ntax, is consistent
> with "nanmu", "nanla", and "ninmu", and = is not already used to mean
> something else, why is "nixli" used instead?

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