From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBDzw-XnBBoEN7cMTg@googlegroups.com Fri Dec 03 13:32:52 2010 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1POdFH-0005cH-Br; Fri, 03 Dec 2010 13:32:52 -0800 Received: by gxk19 with SMTP id 19sf8089430gxk.16 for ; Fri, 03 Dec 2010 13:32:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=mIiFSyjzDxPdPoVhFDbtkpe+z4Tei+R8cFcqE+pY1e8=; b=gCNINK0GzV+PImeMrXFZ4kcGPFQOSIJAKswTRIZc7qkiut09Z8lIFt2i3OH4o4RH5p wB04LXaiZcncAO5jQFTj1kYSy+r3jR9liQzSk6cA+solhQ+GTPlC8XWTw1cYxcLW+PaB ATd7yR9ktv+r5RhA6jC+s9yfeoIH3tqoxM2Lo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=fDvd3Vz2qUamfG+BHG6ZHE2P7akzuo+uP+nA/z0mC7FqN8JGdwTuruWyV/boEzoWSO l3icUAWRrHJsk7W6SGasQXq05fU4Oogp+gbEN8mAM4c8grlq06NLfb/NDogQw9rwwGJ2 4TAVY9CxDxUogDvdWXCouGkaqHJ5Huy4WgCHs= Received: by 10.151.63.5 with SMTP id q5mr279683ybk.25.1291411955986; Fri, 03 Dec 2010 13:32:35 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.141.220 with SMTP id n28ls3906576ibu.0.p; Fri, 03 Dec 2010 13:32:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.159.132 with SMTP id j4mr916487ibx.15.1291411955017; Fri, 03 Dec 2010 13:32:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.159.132 with SMTP id j4mr916486ibx.15.1291411954959; Fri, 03 Dec 2010 13:32:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iw0-f176.google.com (mail-iw0-f176.google.com [209.85.214.176]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id b32si812809ibq.1.2010.12.03.13.32.33; Fri, 03 Dec 2010 13:32:33 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.176 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.176; Received: by iwn35 with SMTP id 35so45980iwn.35 for ; Fri, 03 Dec 2010 13:32:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.31.136 with SMTP id y8mr2303928ibc.145.1291411953759; Fri, 03 Dec 2010 13:32:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.199.206 with HTTP; Fri, 3 Dec 2010 13:32:33 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 16:32:33 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] zo'u is inconsistent From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.176 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0022152d5eadc3617204968846bc --0022152d5eadc3617204968846bc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I've kind of wondered about zo'u myself with regards to this. More interestingly for me though, what in the hell does "se xu" mean? On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 4:00 PM, Ian Johnson wrote: > {zo'u} works like this if I understand correctly: > > PA da PA de ... zo'u -> quantifying da de ... > PA bu'a PA bu'e ... zo'u -> quantifying bu'a bu'e ... > zo'u -> defining the topic in an imprecisely defined > sense > > In any case, you put a string of sumti before it. In one case, doing this > quantifies over sumti. In another case, it quantifies over selbri. In still > another case, it doesn't quantify over ANYTHING. > > .i la'e di'u .e la'e di'u xi re na se nibli .i la'e lo'u ro da le'u .e la'e > lo'u ro bu'a le'u cu sumti .i to se xu toi ni'ibo lo'u ro bu'a zo'u le'u > cmacrkuantifi lo'i sumti .enai lo'i selbri > > What is especially egregious is: > However, indefinite descriptions involving the bu'a-series cannot be > imported from the prenex. (CLL 16.13) > > which to me sounds like "there's magic going on here, so what happens every > other time is forbidden in this specific case." > > My general thought about this is that it's awkward because the language > doesn't have very strong self-referential tools for things like referring to > predicates as predicates. I asked recently about how to refer to > "broda-as-predicate" and was given {la'e zo broda}; I don't know if that's > really adequate for things like quantification over selbri variables and so > on. > > Any thoughts; disagreements, ideas for improvement, etc.? > > mu'o mi'e .latros. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0022152d5eadc3617204968846bc Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've kind of wondered about zo'u myself with regards to this.
<= br>
More interestingly for me though, what in the hell does "= ;se xu" mean?

On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at= 4:00 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:
{zo'u} works like this if I understand = correctly:

PA da PA de ... zo'u -> quantifying da de ...
P= A bu'a PA bu'e ... zo'u -> quantifying bu'a bu'e ...=
<any other sumti> zo'u -> defining the topic in an imprecisely= defined sense

In any case, you put a string of sumti before it. In one case, doing th= is quantifies over sumti. In another case, it quantifies over selbri. In st= ill another case, it doesn't quantify over ANYTHING.

.i la'e= di'u .e la'e di'u xi re na se nibli .i la'e lo'u ro da= le'u .e la'e lo'u ro bu'a le'u cu sumti .i to se xu to= i ni'ibo lo'u ro bu'a zo'u le'u cmacrkuantifi lo'i = sumti .enai lo'i selbri

What is especially egregious is:
However, indefinite descriptions in= volving the bu'a-series cannot be imported from the prenex.=20 (CLL 16.13)

which to me sounds like "there's magic goin= g on here, so what happens every other time is forbidden in this specific c= ase."

My general thought about this is that it's awkward be= cause the language doesn't have very strong self-referential tools for = things like referring to predicates as predicates. I asked recently about h= ow to refer to "broda-as-predicate" and was given {la'e zo br= oda}; I don't know if that's really adequate for things like quanti= fication over selbri variables and so on.

Any thoughts; disagreements, ideas for improvement, etc.?

mu'= ;o mi'e .latros.

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