From lojban+bncCJGY6cDlFhCF3NjnBBoEF2EM9w@googlegroups.com Wed Dec 01 03:14:37 2010 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PNkdl-0003xM-G9; Wed, 01 Dec 2010 03:14:37 -0800 Received: by fxm10 with SMTP id 10sf1698742fxm.16 for ; Wed, 01 Dec 2010 03:14:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:mime-version:received :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=FS0RpVLL9cy8lYrP5EgExgdesWF5oVsGsXobDtHyRjs=; b=zRjnta/BEaJq/kzUwwRxCYFOBsQeedvLRSZU2cYuJUmJUYOPakEC00CEgyaY7LOB58 R0feBS7akxyXC2fzqbp9+4xSN54QxUdqrfXTuQQzhJ4XtfBXweDEv088gpDKafRMhnk6 wdpsRCYxHKUhiQ9A3oIdr/1GSWXqFx9B2MUDw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=3gLupuI5A1Cv26Ds8XQVOmZv7QUHvumq5r4M57q657NCamZo2v42VwLYX5XsNyrRHC KqaCQ59Sq63KX6i0QF61OfPGusbChYAEIDz/BWF0DEV10VaR7YtCPpTt/yTZmbEJ6Rg9 RJJ/qn2IxrsrLFL2tgjEY1KQiWYTq5mbVFDbA= Received: by 10.223.70.130 with SMTP id d2mr405409faj.17.1291202053929; Wed, 01 Dec 2010 03:14:13 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.81.69 with SMTP id w5ls3819973bkk.2.p; Wed, 01 Dec 2010 03:14:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.204.80.146 with SMTP id t18mr896553bkk.20.1291202052592; Wed, 01 Dec 2010 03:14:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.204.80.146 with SMTP id t18mr896552bkk.20.1291202052543; Wed, 01 Dec 2010 03:14:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-fx0-f44.google.com (mail-fx0-f44.google.com [209.85.161.44]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id j16si1079110bkd.6.2010.12.01.03.14.11; Wed, 01 Dec 2010 03:14:11 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of get.oren@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.44 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.161.44; Received: by fxm9 with SMTP id 9so5437232fxm.17 for ; Wed, 01 Dec 2010 03:14:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.223.118.211 with SMTP id w19mr439301faq.14.1291202051226; Wed, 01 Dec 2010 03:14:11 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.105.207 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Dec 2010 03:13:51 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Oren Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 06:13:51 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Smart.fm error To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: get.oren@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of get.oren@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.44 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=get.oren@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636d34e5c98bb73049657679e --001636d34e5c98bb73049657679e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It seems clear to me that "say" has multiple word senses. From wiktionary: To pronounce . *Please say your name slowly and clearly.* To recite . *Martha, will you say grace?* To communicate , either verbally or in writing. *He said he would be here tomorrow.* To indicate in a written form. *Th= e sign says it=92s 50 kilometres to Paris.* * *...is this really worth trying to pin down as absolutely right or wrong? "say" can mean pronounce, or it can mean communicate. Polysemy exists in natural language glosses. This is inescapable. It could be correct to say "But he didn't say anything" and he still indicated/communicated something. It could also be correct to say "I said hello on IRC" and never actually vocalize anything. ...i think that a design choice on the Smart.fm cards was to keep the definitions as brief as possible, and i see "say" as being pretty short in comparison with "express/communicate." Can't people who don't like it just copy the deck and make edits as they choose? On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 03:46, Brian Shannon < teapot.philosopher@googlemail.com> wrote: > > You say words, you express meanings. > > You say "thank you", you express gratitude. > > You say "I love you", you express your feelings. > > > > You cusku words, you cusku "thank you", you cusku "I love you". > > You don't cusku meanings, gratitude or your feelings. > > > > "x1 says x2 to x3 via medium x4" is a much more accurate translation > > of "cusku" than the version with "expresses", despite the gi'uste's > > unfortunate choice of keyword. And "via medium x4" makes it plain that > > this is not restricted to bacru, in case you were tempted to use such > > an artificially restricted meaning of "say". > > > > Of course words do have meanings, so when you say words you are also > > expressing their meanings, but what goes in x2 are the words, not the > > meanings. > > This explanation makes much more sense. Unless you wish to tell us > that "I say 'hello' to you using irc" is not a proper use of the word > "say" in English. Clearly it is. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 Oren Robinson (315) 569-2888 102 Morrison Ave Somerville, MA 02144 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --001636d34e5c98bb73049657679e Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It seems clear to me that "say" has multiple wor= d senses. From wiktionary:

  • To=A0pronounce.
    = Please=A0say=A0your name slowly and clearly.
    • To=A0recite.
    = Martha, will you=A0say=A0grace?
  • To=A0communicate, either v= erbally or in writing.
    = He=A0said=A0he would be here tomorrow.
  • To=A0<= /span>indicate=A0in a written form.
    The sign=A0says=A0it=92= s 50 kilometres to Paris.

    ...is this really= worth trying to pin down as absolutely right or wrong? "say" can= mean pronounce, or it can mean communicate.=A0Polysemy exists in natural l= anguage glosses. This is inescapable.=A0


    It could be correct to say "But he didn't say anything" and h= e still indicated/communicated something.

    It could also be correct= to say "I said hello on IRC" and never actually vocalize anythin= g.

    ...i think that a design choice on the Smart.fm cards was to keep the defin= itions as brief as possible, and i see "say" as being pretty shor= t in comparison with "express/communicate." Can't people who = don't like it just copy the deck and make edits as they choose?

    • On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 03:46, Brian Shannon <teapot.= philosopher@googlemail.com> wrote:
    > You say words, you e= xpress meanings.
    > You say "thank you", you express gratitude.
    > You say "I love you", you express your feelings.
    >
    > You cusku words, you cusku "thank you", you cusku "I lo= ve you".
    > You don't cusku meanings, gratitude or your feelings.
    >
    > "x1 says x2 to x3 via medium x4" is a much more accurate tra= nslation
    > of "cusku" than the version with "expresses", desp= ite the gi'uste's
    > unfortunate choice of keyword. And "via medium x4" makes it = plain that
    > this is not restricted to bacru, in case you were tempted to use such<= br> > an artificially restricted meaning of "say".
    >
    > Of course words do have meanings, so when you say words you are also > expressing their meanings, but what goes in x2 are the words, not the<= br> > meanings.

    This explanation makes much more sense. Unless you wish to tell us that "I say 'hello' to you using irc" is not a proper use= of the word
    "say" in English. Clearly it is.

    --
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    --
    Oren Robinson
    (315) 569-2888
    102 Morrison Ave
    Somerville, MA 02144

    --
    You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
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