From lojban+bncCML0xpmUARDZxebnBBoEYJfqjQ@googlegroups.com Fri Dec 03 18:10:00 2010 Received: from mail-pz0-f61.google.com ([209.85.210.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1POhZF-0003uA-9M; Fri, 03 Dec 2010 18:10:00 -0800 Received: by pzk7 with SMTP id 7sf3557292pzk.16 for ; Fri, 03 Dec 2010 18:09:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=iqARwkFpYCcDvDsndsFMIaK/WKZnDAipcGn5oIX+vIM=; b=p5fx3sR3HJgCzAtGO+zfCH/eGm2/B1jG6ds89/kaY1+na7rg+H3o/9dCFnQYtcXzHK 8E9SMFhkh0JdoUz64num34NEITlPJO5wLllx+Ch+x/AotWzZx+H5I47uoPV/TX3/mZza 4h1Epxr7XikB3R3LT6zFGvKh5eh9RoN0KBVA8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=C0JC/iR7yf7Zrzu1EPJb3ghR18QRCqvBElzH9X7hl2MKfNqpccFsH+qIGDy/YndRoZ nnSgeylR+l+ifJ5QFLRp/F1VSDrWEZPqfzytevrOGFP9gMvTbsTzvvcKSFFxdV3QlEfV 9BrPvOQx0QwPb95IJOUjbfI3XBv0kHsovXoqU= Received: by 10.142.150.9 with SMTP id x9mr148513wfd.5.1291428569361; Fri, 03 Dec 2010 18:09:29 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.142.78.15 with SMTP id a15ls15607802wfb.2.p; Fri, 03 Dec 2010 18:09:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.73.16 with SMTP id v16mr1556151wfa.37.1291428568081; Fri, 03 Dec 2010 18:09:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.73.16 with SMTP id v16mr1556150wfa.37.1291428568046; Fri, 03 Dec 2010 18:09:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pz0-f45.google.com (mail-pz0-f45.google.com [209.85.210.45]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id p40si2759838wfc.2.2010.12.03.18.09.27; Fri, 03 Dec 2010 18:09:27 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.45 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.210.45; Received: by pzk2 with SMTP id 2so2095962pzk.18 for ; Fri, 03 Dec 2010 18:09:27 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.135.18 with SMTP id i18mr123694wfd.377.1291428566888; Fri, 03 Dec 2010 18:09:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.86.1 with HTTP; Fri, 3 Dec 2010 18:09:26 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 21:09:26 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] zo'u is inconsistent From: Ian Johnson To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.45 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd32cd4fb730804968c2476 --000e0cd32cd4fb730804968c2476 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I can never remember how {.i bo} works, so I wasn't sure if I wanted {.i ni'i bo} or {.i se ni'i bo}. On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 4:32 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > I've kind of wondered about zo'u myself with regards to this. > > More interestingly for me though, what in the hell does "se xu" mean? > > On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 4:00 PM, Ian Johnson wrote: > >> {zo'u} works like this if I understand correctly: >> >> PA da PA de ... zo'u -> quantifying da de ... >> PA bu'a PA bu'e ... zo'u -> quantifying bu'a bu'e ... >> zo'u -> defining the topic in an imprecisely defined >> sense >> >> In any case, you put a string of sumti before it. In one case, doing this >> quantifies over sumti. In another case, it quantifies over selbri. In still >> another case, it doesn't quantify over ANYTHING. >> >> .i la'e di'u .e la'e di'u xi re na se nibli .i la'e lo'u ro da le'u .e >> la'e lo'u ro bu'a le'u cu sumti .i to se xu toi ni'ibo lo'u ro bu'a zo'u >> le'u cmacrkuantifi lo'i sumti .enai lo'i selbri >> >> What is especially egregious is: >> However, indefinite descriptions involving the bu'a-series cannot be >> imported from the prenex. (CLL 16.13) >> >> which to me sounds like "there's magic going on here, so what happens >> every other time is forbidden in this specific case." >> >> My general thought about this is that it's awkward because the language >> doesn't have very strong self-referential tools for things like referring to >> predicates as predicates. I asked recently about how to refer to >> "broda-as-predicate" and was given {la'e zo broda}; I don't know if that's >> really adequate for things like quantification over selbri variables and so >> on. >> >> Any thoughts; disagreements, ideas for improvement, etc.? >> >> mu'o mi'e .latros. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --000e0cd32cd4fb730804968c2476 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I can never remember how {.i <tag> bo} works, so I wasn't sure if= I wanted {.i ni'i bo} or {.i se ni'i bo}.

On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 4:32 PM, Luke Bergen <= ;lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
I've kind of = wondered about zo'u myself with regards to this.

Mor= e interestingly for me though, what in the hell does "se xu" mean= ?

On Fri, De= c 3, 2010 at 4:00 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:
=
{zo'u} works like this if I understand cor= rectly:

PA da PA de ... zo'u -> quantifying da de ...
PA bu'a PA = bu'e ... zo'u -> quantifying bu'a bu'e ...
<any other sumti> zo'u -> defining the topic in an imprecisely= defined sense

In any case, you put a string of sumti before it. In one case, doing th= is quantifies over sumti. In another case, it quantifies over selbri. In st= ill another case, it doesn't quantify over ANYTHING.

.i la'e= di'u .e la'e di'u xi re na se nibli .i la'e lo'u ro da= le'u .e la'e lo'u ro bu'a le'u cu sumti .i to se xu to= i ni'ibo lo'u ro bu'a zo'u le'u cmacrkuantifi lo'i = sumti .enai lo'i selbri

What is especially egregious is:
However, indefinite descriptions in= volving the bu'a-series cannot be imported from the prenex.=20 (CLL 16.13)

which to me sounds like "there's magic goin= g on here, so what happens every other time is forbidden in this specific c= ase."

My general thought about this is that it's awkward be= cause the language doesn't have very strong self-referential tools for = things like referring to predicates as predicates. I asked recently about h= ow to refer to "broda-as-predicate" and was given {la'e zo br= oda}; I don't know if that's really adequate for things like quanti= fication over selbri variables and so on.

Any thoughts; disagreements, ideas for improvement, etc.?

mu'= ;o mi'e .latros.

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