From lojban+bncCM_Iwd36FxCulOfnBBoEycc3tw@googlegroups.com Fri Dec 03 20:57:38 2010 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1POkBe-0005Nz-GB; Fri, 03 Dec 2010 20:57:38 -0800 Received: by wwb17 with SMTP id 17sf6093565wwb.16 for ; Fri, 03 Dec 2010 20:57:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:mime-version:sender :received:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=mzbt5qWraPsY+ZcS/2Y1vCSsJRPCG0ka5cF0KIk67h8=; b=l5/qPHDOvDTZbVG3OfoLlUo+gM74hDtSqtI5ab6yT+czUNb+uVZOEkg7FBH7KT+F7p cD+aEGiD1wdgmsAbErp/N4xs91dJa0h4EUKwGaEckp2A/uBZbNXzFAgHLUitEbOEWYX4 Poh5dfloblC539SdRbYhh7davqbjw/QcbTiOE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=iDsqWqQqsnqaLmm1U7W0+/5rsMNx/r/mh9pkXl310agQeDNBtPtx/XvRnUkbqXVcXZ OIBEkIn6y/axREHBaJb3dFO+CsECge+RIQGLK5kW9rkLQZyoEPAdgTKYvBHe2pS/Un7K mH7uSf0E1geBOUdMrkNcPqbkHiNLIY03Z5bkk= Received: by 10.216.20.208 with SMTP id p58mr15585wep.4.1291438638980; Fri, 03 Dec 2010 20:57:18 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.14.25.20 with SMTP id y20ls1351123eey.1.p; Fri, 03 Dec 2010 20:57:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.14.37.132 with SMTP id y4mr468718eea.20.1291438637068; Fri, 03 Dec 2010 20:57:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.14.37.132 with SMTP id y4mr468717eea.20.1291438636925; Fri, 03 Dec 2010 20:57:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ey0-f169.google.com (mail-ey0-f169.google.com [209.85.215.169]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id v14si807021eeh.5.2010.12.03.20.57.15; Fri, 03 Dec 2010 20:57:15 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of danny.piccirillo@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.169 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.215.169; Received: by eydd26 with SMTP id d26so5834952eyd.14 for ; Fri, 03 Dec 2010 20:57:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.213.34.66 with SMTP id k2mr79189ebd.90.1291438635065; Fri, 03 Dec 2010 20:57:15 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.213.3.5 with HTTP; Fri, 3 Dec 2010 20:56:54 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: =?UTF-8?Q?sarv=C5=8Ddaya?= Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 23:56:54 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Fwd: [lojban] Re: Logical Naming Conventions To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: dannypiccirillo@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of danny.piccirillo@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.169 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=danny.piccirillo@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174c194017a3be04968e7d01 X-Spam_score: 0.3 X-Spam_score_int: 3 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: Spam detection software, running on the system "chain.digitalkingdom.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Just wanted to provide an update on this conversation started over a year and a half ago. I chose a new name, sarvōdaya, a mononym, though it isn't in lojban as i'd originally considered/intended. It is a term that was coined by Gandhi meaning "progress for all" or "universal uplifting". Facebook doesn't allow mononyms, so i used swaraj, which means self-governance, as a last name for sites that require a last name. I was wondering if there are similar words in lojban. The closest i could find is trucau, meaning anarchy (the philosophy, not "chaos"). [...] Content analysis details: (0.3 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.7 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, low trust [74.125.82.61 listed in list.dnswl.org] 1.5 URIBL_RHS_DOB Contains an URI of a new domain (Day Old Bread) [URIs: kronkltd.net] -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 T_FRT_LOLITA1 BODY: ReplaceTags: Lolita (1) 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message -0.5 BAYES_05 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 1 to 5% [score: 0.0234] 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature 0.0 RFC_ABUSE_POST Both abuse and postmaster missing on sender domain 0.0 T_FILL_THIS_FORM_SHORT Fill in a short form with personal information --0015174c194017a3be04968e7d01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just wanted to provide an update on this conversation started over a year and a half ago. I chose a new name, sarv=C5=8Ddaya, a mononym, though it isn't in lojban as= i'd originally considered/intended. It is a term that was coined by Gandhi meaning "progress for all" or "universal uplifting". Facebook doesn't allow mononyms, so i used swaraj, which means self-governance, as a last name for sites that require a last name. I was wondering if there are similar words in lojban. The closest i could find is trucau, meaning anarchy (the philosophy, not "chaos"). I'm viewing this more as an adoption of a new name, rather than an abandonment of my birth name. While my new name will be my primary name, my "real" name, my family may always know my by the name they gave me, and that's fine. We all have many names, as i believe came up in this thread. Nicknames, legal names, birth names, pseudonyms, etc. I'm just changing which is my primary one. Forwarded conversation Subject: Logical Naming Conventions ------------------------ From: *Danny Piccirillo* Date: Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 22:20 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Some of you on the channel may already be familiar with my plan to legally change my name. I have a lot of issues with the traditional naming system. Last names-- wtf= ? Take it from dad or mom or both? Why not neither? Gender neutrality. Lack o= f meaning (i'm not sure how i feel about that one). How do all of you feel about naming? If you had to choose your own name, ho= w would you do it any why? My plan was originally to find something i can identify with (perhaps it wa= s spoons, for some odd reason), then find an appropriate lojban translation, and if i liked how it sounded for a name, and it was shortenable to a nickname, i would legally change my name to it (and abandon my last name). What i'm torn between is choosing a name with meaning, or choosing a name purely because it sounds nice. What makes the most sense to you guys? I've been having a LOT of trouble finding something i can really identify with = =3D[ ---------- From: ** Date: Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 22:29 To: lojban-list@lojban.org I have issues with names too. I want my name to be unique, or at the very least, very rare. Names are very personal. You should go with what you like. If that means it sounds nice, or has a meaning you can identify with, go with that. stevo ---------- From: *Danny Piccirillo* Date: Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 23:04 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Ah, that brings up another thing. Should names be 100% unique? That seems pretty impossible to me, but worth at least a moment of thought ---------- From: *Craig Daniel* Date: Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 23:25 To: lojban-list@lojban.org The Lojban community is small enough that they can be, for now. So far as I know, I'm still the only .kreig. around, although I imagine any new arrivals named John would want to at least consider picking something less obvious than .djan. - mi'e .kreig.daniyl. noi pilno lo lanzu cmene To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. ---------- From: ** Date: Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 23:39 To: lojban-list@lojban.org There is no reason or need for names to be unique, except as a personal preference, as in my case. I get by in my life just fine with my given name, and I don't personally know anyone else who has my name. Even my mother and one of my aunts, who share exactly the same name, don't have any problems with sharing their name. It's a problem only for the minority of people who are not satisfied with the name they have. Asking if names should be unique is implying that names should be forced on people. I vehemently object to anything like that. Names should be a matter of choice, of personal freedom. If you don't like your name, change it. As many times as you want. stevo ---------- From: *Danny Piccirillo* Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 01:03 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Mm, true. That was really just a side concern to everything else which i'm still not sure how i feel about. ---------- From: *Oleksii Melnyk* Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 07:16 To: lojban-list@lojban.org The name should be globally unique "number" (like those found in passports, etc), in Bubble-Babble (or similar) encoding. Parts of it are "short" name for everyday use, still unique enough (if 2 or more syllables used "birthday problem" arises near 300 persons -- quite a big party). mi'e xolik-lyvyz-raxax mu'o do'u 2009/4/29, Danny Piccirillo : -- mu'o mi'e lex ---------- From: *Pierre Abbat* Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 07:25 To: lojban-list@lojban.org I think there should be one family name passed down by the mother and another passed down by the father. I don't know of any culture that does that, though. Pierre ---------- From: *Luke Bergen* Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 09:10 To: lojban-list@lojban.org So, Pierre, in that system what would happen in the following generation? Let's say: A + B marry and have children who take both A and B. Now we have AB. So now AB wants to marry the child of X + Y. So now we have AB + XY marry and have children who take both AB and XY and now we haev ABXY. For generation n a person would have 2^n names. I like Asimov's idea from his "Foundation" series. In it there's a planet that does naming according to who you are/what you've done/other things about you, and your name is a massive string of all these things with the most intrinsically you things being closer to the beginning. People can then use as much of their name as they please in day to day life. For instance, under this system, I might call myself: "skamilojbozoigo" although skami, lojban, and go are more interests so I would obviously put = a little more thought into it. But then in day to day life I'd say "just cal= l me skamil" or some such. - Luke Bergen ---------- From: *Craig Daniel* Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 09:59 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Spain does it that way. Although, in non-gender-neutral fashion, the one you get from your mother is the one she got from her father. ---------- From: *Pierre Abbat* Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 10:02 To: lojban-list@lojban.org If A is AB's patrilineal name and AB is a man, and X is XY's patrilineal name, their children will be named AY. ---------- From: *Luke Bergen* Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 10:07 To: lojban-list@lojban.org ahh, I see. So what if female children took the mothers name while males took the fathers name, that way there'd be a better chance of the maternal name surviving? - Luke Bergen ---------- From: ** Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 11:02 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Why is it necessary, or even desirable, for a name to survive? stevo ---------- From: *Luke Bergen* Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 11:09 To: lojban-list@lojban.org I don't know. I guess "carrying on the family name" *is* kind of an archai= c idea. - Luke Bergen ---------- From: *Danny Piccirillo* Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 11:46 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Yes, it is. Some families are the "normal" mom and dad, or they are gay, an= d now, polyamorous families are starting to come in. Then there are divorces, single parents, adoption, re-marrying, etc, etc. Families are much too complicated for family names to work, and i don't think they're worth it anyway. I've already planned to abandon my last name, so now i just need to figure out what to adopt for a new name. Asimov's idea that Luke posted certainly is interesting and i like it but it obviously isn't very practical. Do you guys prefer naemes that you can identify with, or just names with no (or very little) meaning that sound nice? ---------- From: *Steve Sloan* Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 11:59 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Absolutely, that's why I'm naming my kids 7545b465-0ef8-45b6-976c-9756ea9eaf68 and 7a8729b7-d128-4891-8835-d444075d5eb5. ;) -- Steve ---------- From: ** Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 11:59 To: lojban-list@lojban.org I don't go by the sound much at all. A name like "Wahoolawallahoo" would just be random nonsense, regardless of how 'nice' it sounds. I wouldn't want a name that is nonsense. Even a number is better than that. ST3VO ---------- From: ** Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 12:00 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Asimov's idea Where in the Foundation books does he talk about names? stevo ---------- From: *Luke Bergen* Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 12:07 To: lojban-list@lojban.org In the last two books I believe. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_(Foundation_universe) - Luke Bergen ---------- From: ** Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 12:26 To: lojban-list@lojban.org I looked there, but they don't actually mention naming conventions, althoug= h they do give one name without any clarification. stevo ---------- From: *tijlan* Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 10:07 To: lojban-list@lojban.org The Icelandic naming system goes like this: {a.A} (patfu) + {b.B} (mamta) -> {c.A-sson} (bersa) / {d.A-d=C3=B3ttir} (tixnu) or -> {c.B-sson} (bersa) / {d.B-d=C3=B3ttir} (tixnu) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelandic_name mu'o mi'e tijlan ---------- From: *tijlan* Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 10:09 To: lojban-list@lojban.org No, actually: -> {c.a-sson} (bersa) / {d.a-d=C3=B3ttir} (tixnu) or -> {c.b-sson} (bersa) / {d.b-d=C3=B3ttir} (tixnu) ---------- From: *Danny Piccirillo* Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 12:50 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Well, my name is Danny, and that to me has no meaning. Does this qualify as a "nonsense" name? I'm just asking to make sure we're talking about the sam= e thing. ---------- From: ** Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 13:00 To: lojban-list@lojban.org I would say it's not a nonsense name. While "Danny" itself may have no meaning, at least to you, it is part of a large network of associations. It's the usual nickname for "Daniel", which has a long and Biblical history. It's not a made-up name, like the one I suggested. stevo ---------- From: *Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas* Date: 2009/4/29 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Both "Wahoola" and "Wallahoo" are attested names (and both contain the problematic "la", BTW) but I couldn't find any hits for the compound form Wahoolawallahoo. :) mu'o mi'e xorxes ---------- From: *Luke Bergen* Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 13:19 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Morpheme, the naming conventions on Gaia from the Foundation series is mentioned as an aside in the books. I don't think that people's names consisted of literal words like "mayorhumanitariangreatorator" but rather like "daniel" has meaning associated with it. Or in lojban terms, maybe one would use the rafsi of different words that they associate with to make one enormous lujvo like construct (but in cmene form). So from my earlier example, skamilojbozoigo becomes skajbozoigos, o= r skaj in day to day use. I would guess most names would be much longer as most people don't really identify with only a few interests. Kind of reminds me of geek code. - Luke Bergen ---------- From: *John E Clifford* Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 13:23 To: lojban-list@lojban.org I thought it was a-sson etc; i.e., the first name, not the second (which is presumably already a sson or dottir) ---------- From: *Danny Piccirillo* Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 13:28 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Yes, but to me and most people it's just another name that has no meaning. = I don't know any off the top of my head, but there are many names with no meaning. Although my name has a history, it's meaning has mostly been lost, so i put it in the same category as the many completely meaningless names out there. So, do they all qualify as nonsense? ---------- From: *Luke Bergen* Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 13:36 To: lojban-list@lojban.org One thing I've thought about in the past, if you know a bunch of people wit= h the same name as you who have certain personality traits, are you more likely to pick up those traits yourself? For instance, "I've never met a ____ who wasn't a jerk" is a phrase I've heard some times. Do you think there could be any truth to that? - Luke Bergen ---------- From: ** Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 13:38 To: lojban-list@lojban.org I'd still say no, since it's not a made-up name. It's a common name, part of the language in fact, not a nonce-name. stevo (not "Morpheme") ---------- From: ** Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 16:44 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Here is what I'm using in my science fiction setting. This presupposes that entirely logical aliens harvested humans for use as biological robots, so having a defined starting point and a limited sample makes life easier The humans were chosen and defined in terms of forty genetic markers. thes= e genetic markers were assigned (by the aliens) a hierarchy of desirability. The first generation had only a single last name, that of their genetic marker. The second generation had a hypehentated genius name, with the firs= t word being the deignation for the highest rated marker between the parents and the second being the lower rated. Children are called by their sex and birth order, being something like first male offspring of gene marker 15 an= d gene marker 33. The next generation would take the highest marker from each parent and so on. Once the children become adults they will acquire a name based on achievement Just my two bits. Terry ------------------------------ Big savings on Dell XPS Laptops and Desktops! ---------- From: *Danny Piccirillo* Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 16:55 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Mmm, now what about a practical approach we can use in today's world? Names have to stay the same (or at least can't be easily changed), so what should i do until humanity adopts a more ideal naming system... xD ---------- From: *John E Clifford* Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 18:43 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Well, what do you want names to do -- beyond contextual uniqueness? Be pretty? then pick something pretty. Be informative? Pick something that gives the information you consider important. And perhaps different things for different contexts. There is, I suppose, such a thing as a general purpose name -- something like the function of our historically given name -- which would be a starting point (mine is foor almost all of my other names) and you can get on from that. Your given name seems a good starting point, especially if you go back into its history (something about God - E= l - and whatever Piccirillo comes from [triangulating translations come up with wanderer, cockscomb and tor, but nevermind]). And you don't have to b= e limited by that, of course. ------------------------------ *From:* Danny Piccirillo *Sent:* Wednesday, April 29, 2009 3:55:01 PM ---------- From: *Adam Raizen* Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 20:21 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Names also often serve as a source of cultural identification for the bearer. Some immigrants to Israel Hebraize their name, Muslim converts often choose Arabic names, naturalized Icelandic citizens choose Icelandic names, etc. -- Adam Raizen Got sente? ---------- From: ** Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 22:34 To: lojban-list@lojban.org You could have several different names (not necessarily related to one another) that you use under different circumstances. I have about five different names, although mine are all related (at least so far). ---------- From: *Daniel E. Renfer* Date: Fri, May 1, 2009 at 14:46 To: lojban-list@lojban.org I wish I knew the name of the book, but one time, years ago, they were talking about this book on the radio that compiled a list of names and the common associations with those names. (ie. Dexter tends to be nerdy, etc.) The problem with unique names is it makes it impossible to find those little personalized lisence plates or pencils for your kids. (my children are named Tobias and Random) Also, WRT the whole family line issue, my dad was adopted. So while I still feel a connection to my last name, I am not really, technically a Renfer. - Daniel E. Renfer ---------- From: *Michael Turniansky* Date: Tue, May 5, 2009 at 16:49 To: lojban-list@lojban.org You might be thinking of "The Baby Name Survey Book" by Bruce Lansky, (an= d its sequel, "The New Baby Name Survey" but then again, you might not. (Interestingly enough, there is a website, about-name.com, that is doing th= e same thing). I know how you feel, My kids also have unusual names, at least in the generalized society, and even though they're not out of place in my community (Orthodox Judaism), at least one (Rashi) has an unusual name even for there.... --gejyspa ---------- From: *David290* Date: Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 04:46 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Re: Logical Naming Conventions Author: David290 Well, my Chinese name =E8=BE=BE=E6=9E=97,I born with, is meaningful, meanin= g "arrival to the forest". So, my lojbanic name is "klama'u ricfoi". ---------- From: *Oren* Date: 2009/10/11 To: lojban-list@lojban.org my chinese name =E7=99=BD=E6=9D=BE, the surname carries no meaning and the = name means "pine tree," also my latin-alphabet name Oren is hebrew for "pine tree," so mi'e .ku'us. --=20 =E7=99=BD=E6=9D=BE - Oren Robinson +86-15810101944 ---------- From: *Michael Turniansky* Date: Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 09:38 To: lojban-list@lojban.org How do you get "arrival" out of "klama'u"? That means a "going type of mature thing". (klama makcu). --gejyspa ---------- From: *Oren* Date: 2009/10/12 To: lojban-list@lojban.org It's poetic; the maturation, the fruition of a "klama" is an arrival, by virtue of it's default sumti! Sent from Beijing, 11, China --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0015174c194017a3be04968e7d01 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just wanted to provide an update on this conversation started over a year a= nd a half ago.

I chose a new name, sa= rv=C5=8Ddaya, a mononym, though it isn't in lojban as i'd originall= y considered/intended. It is a term that was coined by Gandhi meaning "= ;progress for all" or "universal uplifting". Facebook doesn&= #39;t allow mononyms, so i used swaraj, which means self-governance, as a l= ast name for sites that require a last name. I was wondering if there are s= imilar words in lojban. The closest i could find is trucau, meaning = anarchy (the philosophy, not "chaos").

I'm viewing this more as an adoption of a new name, rather than an = abandonment of my birth name. While my new name will be my primary name, my= "real" name, my family may always know my by the name they gave = me, and that's fine. We all have many names, as i believe came up in th= is thread. Nicknames, legal names, birth names, pseudonyms, etc. I'm ju= st changing which is my primary one.

Forwarded conversation
Subject: Logical Naming Conventions
------------------------

From: Danny Piccirillo <danny.piccirillo@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 22:20
To: lojban-list@lojban.org


Some of you on t= he channel may already be familiar with my plan to legally change my name.= =C2=A0

I have a lot of issues with the traditional naming system. Last names--= wtf? Take it from dad or mom or both? Why not neither? Gender neutrality. = Lack of meaning (i'm not sure how i feel about that one).=C2=A0

How do all of you feel about naming? If you had to choose your own name= , how would you do it any why?=C2=A0

My plan was originally to find = something i can identify with (perhaps it was spoons, for some odd reason),= then find an appropriate lojban translation, and if i liked how it sounded= for a name, and it was shortenable to a nickname, i would legally change m= y name to it (and abandon my last name). What i'm torn between is choos= ing a name with meaning, or choosing a name purely because it sounds nice. = What makes the most sense to you guys? I've been having a LOT of troubl= e finding something i can really identify with =3D[
----------
From: <= b class=3D"undefined"> <MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com>
Date: = Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 22:29
To: lojban-list@lojban.org


I have issues with names too. =C2=A0I want my name to be unique, or at = the very least, very rare. =C2=A0

Names are very personal. =C2=A0You should go with what you like. =C2=A0= If that means it sounds nice, or has a meaning you can identify with, go wi= th that. =C2=A0

stevo
----------
= From: Danny Piccirillo <danny.piccirillo@gmail.com&g= t;
Date: Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 23:04
To: lojban-list@lojban.org


Ah, that brings = up another thing. Should names be 100% unique? That seems pretty impossible= to me, but worth at least a moment of thought

----------
From: Craig Daniel &= lt;craigbdaniel@gmail.com>=
Date: Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 23:25
To: lojban-list@lojban.org


The Lojban commu= nity is small enough that they can be, for now.

So far as I know, I'm still the only .kreig. around, although I
imagine any new arrivals named John would want to at least consider
picking something less obvious than .djan.

=C2=A0- mi'e .kreig.daniyl.
noi pilno lo lanzu cmene


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----------
From: <= b class=3D"undefined"> <MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com>
Date: = Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 23:39
To: lojban-list@lojban.org


There is no reason or need for names to be unique, except as a personal= preference, as in my case. =C2=A0I get by in my life just fine with my giv= en name, and I don't personally know anyone else who has my name. =C2= =A0Even my mother and one of my aunts, who share exactly the same name, don= 't have any problems with sharing their name. =C2=A0

It's a problem only for the minority of people who are not satisfie= d with the name they have.=20

Asking if names should be unique is implying that names should be force= d on people. =C2=A0I vehemently object to anything like that. =C2=A0Names s= hould be a matter of choice, of personal freedom. =C2=A0If you don't li= ke your name, change it. =C2=A0As many times as you want. =C2=A0

stevo
----------
= From: Danny Piccirillo <danny.piccirillo@gmail.com&g= t;
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 01:03
To: lojban-list@lojban.org


Mm, true. That w= as really just a side concern to everything else which i'm still not su= re how i feel about.=C2=A0

----------
From: Oleksii Melnyk <lamelnyk@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 07:16
To: lojban-list@lojban.org

The name should be globally unique "number"= ; (like those found in
passports, etc), in Bubble-Babble (or similar) encoding. Parts of it
are "short" name for everyday use, still unique enough (if 2 or m= ore
syllables used "birthday problem" arises near 300 persons -- quit= e a
big party).

mi'e xolik-lyvyz-raxax mu'o do'u

2009/4/29, Danny Piccirillo <danny.piccirillo@gmail.com>:
--
mu'o mi'e lex

----------
From: Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu= >
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 07:25
To: lojban-list@lojban.org


I think there sh= ould be one family name passed down by the mother and another
passed down by the father. I don't know of any culture that does that,<= br> though.

Pierre

----------
From: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.co= m>
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 09:10
To: lojban-list@lojban.org


So, Pierre, in t= hat system what would happen in the following generation?=C2=A0 Let's s= ay:

A + B marry and have children who take both A and B.=C2=A0 Now we have = AB.=C2=A0 So now AB wants to marry the child of X + Y.=C2=A0 So now we have=

AB + XY marry and have children who take both AB and XY and now we haev= ABXY.=C2=A0 For generation n a person would have 2^n names.

I like = Asimov's idea from his "Foundation" series.=C2=A0 In it there= 's a planet that does naming according to who you are/what you've d= one/other things about you, and your name is a massive string of all these = things with the most intrinsically you things being closer to the beginning= .=C2=A0 People can then use as much of their name as they please in day to = day life.=C2=A0 For instance, under this system, I might call myself:=C2=A0= "skamilojbozoigo" although skami, lojban, and go are more intere= sts so I would obviously put a little more thought into it.=C2=A0 But then = in day to day life I'd say "just call me skamil" or some such= .

- Luke Bergen

----------
From: Craig = Daniel <= craigbdaniel@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 09:59
To: lojban-list@lojban.org


Spain does it th= at way.

Although, in non-gender-neutral fashion, the one you get from your
mother is the one she got from her father.

----------
From: Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu>
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 10:02
To: lojban-list@lojban.org


If A is AB's= patrilineal name and AB is a man, and X is XY's patrilineal name,
their children will be named AY.

----------
From: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com&g= t;
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 10:07
To: lojban-list@lojban.org


ahh, I see.=C2= =A0 So what if female children took the mothers name while males took the f= athers name, that way there'd be a better chance of the maternal name s= urviving?

- Luke Bergen

= ----------
From: <MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com>
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 11:02
To: lojban-list@lojban.org



Why is it necessary, or even desirable, for a name to survive?

stevo
----------
= From: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
D= ate: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 11:09
To: lojban-list@lojban.org

I don't know.=C2=A0 I guess "carrying on th= e family name" is kind of an archaic idea.

- Luke Bergen

----------
From: Danny Picc= irillo <danny.piccirillo@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 11:46
To: lojban-list@lojban.org


Yes, it is. Some= families are the "normal" mom and dad, or they are gay, and now,= polyamorous families are starting to come in. Then there are divorces, sin= gle parents, adoption, re-marrying, etc, etc. Families are much too complic= ated for family names to work, and i don't think they're worth it a= nyway.=C2=A0

I've already planned to abandon my last name, so now i just need to= figure out what to adopt for a new name. Asimov's idea that Luke poste= d certainly is interesting and i like it but it obviously isn't very pr= actical. Do you guys prefer naemes that you can identify with, or just name= s with no (or very little) meaning that sound nice?=C2=A0

----------
From: Steve Sloan &l= t;steve@finagle.org>
= Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 11:59
To: lojban-list@lojban.org

Absolutely, that's why I'm naming my kids 7545b465-0ef8-45b6-976c-9= 756ea9eaf68 and 7a8729b7-d128-4891-8835-d444075d5eb5. ;)

-- Steve

----------
From: <MorphemeAddict= @wmconnect.com>
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 11:59
To: lojban-list@lojban.org



I don't go by the sound much at all. =C2=A0A name like "Wahool= awallahoo" would just be random nonsense, regardless of how 'nice&= #39; it sounds. =C2=A0I wouldn't want a name that is nonsense. =C2=A0Ev= en a number is better than that. =C2=A0

ST3VO
----------
= From: <MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com>Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 12:00
To: lojban-list@lojban.org

Asimov's idea

Where in the Foundation books does he talk about names?

stevo
----------
= From: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
D= ate: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 12:07
To: lojban-list@lojban.org

In the last two books I believe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_(Foundation_universe)


- Luke Bergen

----------
From: <MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com>
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 12:26
To: lojban-list@lojban.org



I looked there, but they don't actually mention naming conventions,= although they do give one name without any clarification.

stevo
----------
= From: tijlan <jbotijlan@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, = Apr 29, 2009 at 10:07
To: lojban-list@lojban.org

The Icelandic naming system goes like this:

=C2=A0{a.A} (patfu) + {b.B} (mamta)

=C2=A0-> {c.A-sson} (bersa) / {d.A-d=C3=B3ttir} (tixnu)

or

=C2=A0-> {c.B-sson} (bersa) / {d.B-d=C3=B3ttir} (tixnu)

h= ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelandic_name

mu'o mi'e tijlan

----------
From: tijlan &l= t;jbotijlan@gmail.com>=
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 10:09
To: lojban-list@lojban.org

No, actually:
=C2=A0-> {c.a-sson} (bersa) / {d.a-d=C3=B3ttir} (tixnu)

or

=C2=A0-> {c.b-sson} (bersa) / {d.b-d=C3=B3ttir} (tixnu)

----------
From: Danny Piccirillo <danny.piccirillo= @gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 12:50
To: lojban-list@lojban.org


Well, my name is= Danny, and that to me has no meaning. Does this qualify as a "nonsens= e" name? I'm just asking to make sure we're talking about the = same thing.

----------
From: <MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com&g= t;
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 13:00
To: lojban-list@lojban.org



I would say it's not a nonsense name. =C2=A0While "Danny"= itself may have no meaning, at least to you, it is part of a large network= of associations. =C2=A0It's the usual nickname for "Daniel",= which has a long and Biblical history. =C2=A0It's not a made-up name, = like the one I suggested.

stevo
----------
= From: Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <= jjllambias@gmail.com>=
Date: 2009/4/29
To: lojban-list@lojban.org

Both "Wahoola" and "Wallahoo" ar= e attested names (and both contain the
problematic "la", BTW) but I couldn't find any hits for the c= ompound
form Wahoolawallahoo. :)

mu'o mi'e xorxes

----------
From: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com&g= t;
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 13:19
To: lojban-list@lojban.org


Morpheme, the na= ming conventions on Gaia from the Foundation series is mentioned as an asid= e in the books.=C2=A0 I don't think that people's names consisted o= f literal words like "mayorhumanitariangreatorator" but rather li= ke "daniel" has meaning associated with it.

Or in lojban terms, maybe one would use the rafsi of different words th= at they associate with to make one enormous lujvo like construct (but in cm= ene form).=C2=A0 So from my earlier example, skamilojbozoigo becomes skajbo= zoigos, or skaj in day to day use.=C2=A0 I would guess most names would be = much longer as most people don't really identify with only a few intere= sts.

Kind of reminds me of geek code.

- Luke Bergen

----------
From: Joh= n E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 13:23
To: lojban-list@lojban.org



I thought it was a-sson etc; i.e., the first name, not the second (which is= presumably already a sson or dottir)

----------
From: Danny Piccirillo <danny.piccirillo= @gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 13:28
To: lojban-list@lojban.org


Yes, but to me a= nd most people it's just another name that has no meaning. I don't = know any off the top of my head, but there are many names with no meaning. = Although my name has a history, it's meaning has mostly been lost, so i= put it in the same category as the many completely meaningless names out t= here. So, do they all qualify as nonsense?=C2=A0

----------
From: Luke Bergen &l= t;lukeabergen@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 13:36
To: lojban-list@lojban.org


One thing I'= ve thought about in the past, if you know a bunch of people with the same n= ame as you who have certain personality traits, are you more likely to pick= up those traits yourself?=C2=A0 For instance, "I've never met a _= ___ who wasn't a jerk" is a phrase I've heard some times.=C2= =A0 Do you think there could be any truth to that?

- Luke Bergen

----------
From: <= span dir=3D"ltr"><Morphe= meAddict@wmconnect.com>
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 13:38
To: lojban-list@lojban.org



I'd still say no, since it's not a made-up name. =C2=A0It's= a common name, part of the language in fact, not a nonce-name.

stevo (not "Morpheme")
----------
= From: <tsofian@aol.com>
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 a= t 16:44
To: lojban-list@lojban.org

Here is what I'm using in my science fiction set= ting. This presupposes that entirely logical aliens harvested humans for us= e as biological robots, so having a defined starting point and a limited sa= mple makes life easier

The humans were chosen and defined in terms of forty genetic markers. = these genetic markers were assigned (by the aliens) a hierarchy of desirabi= lity. The first generation had only a single last name, that of their genet= ic marker. The second generation had a hypehentated genius name, with the f= irst word being the deignation for the highest rated marker between the par= ents and the second being the lower rated. Children are called by their sex= and birth order, being something like first male offspring of gene marker = 15 and gene marker 33. The next generation would take the highest marker fr= om each parent and so on.

Once the children become adults they will acquire a name based on achi= evement

Just my two bits.

Terry

----------
From: <= b class=3D"undefined">Danny Piccirillo <danny.piccirillo@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 16:55
To: lojban-list@lojban.org


Mmm, now what ab= out a practical approach we can use in today's world? Names have to sta= y the same (or at least can't be easily changed), so what should i do u= ntil humanity adopts a more ideal naming system... xD

----------
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com><= /span>
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 18:43
To: lojban-list@lojban.org


Well, what do you want names to do -- beyond contextual uniqueness?=C2=A0 B= e pretty?=C2=A0 then pick something pretty.=C2=A0 Be informative? Pick some= thing that gives the information you consider important.=C2=A0 And perhaps = different things for different contexts.=C2=A0=C2=A0 There is, I suppose, s= uch a thing as a general purpose name -- something like the function of our= historically given name -- which would be a starting point (mine is foor a= lmost all of my other names) and you can get on from that.=C2=A0 Your given= name seems a good starting point, especially if you go back into its histo= ry (something about God=C2=A0 - El - and whatever Piccirillo comes from [tr= iangulating translations come up with wanderer, cockscomb and tor, but neve= rmind]).=C2=A0 And you don't have to be limited by that, of course.

From: Danny Piccirillo <= ;danny.picc= irillo@gmail.com>Sent:<= /b> Wednesday, April 29, 2009 3:55:01 PM


----------
From: Adam Raizen <adam.raizen@gmail.com><= br>Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 20:21
To: lojban-list@lojban.org

Names also often serve as a source of cultural ident= ification for the
bearer. Some immigrants to Israel Hebraize their name, Muslim converts
often choose Arabic names, naturalized Icelandic citizens choose
Icelandic names, etc.

--
Adam Raizen <adam.raizen@gmail.= com>
Got sente?

----------
From: &= lt;MorphemeAddict@wmconnect= .com>
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 22:34
To: lojban-list@lojban.org



You could have several different names (not necessarily related to one = another) that you use under different circumstances. =C2=A0I have about fiv= e different names, although mine are all related (at least so far). =C2=A0<= /font>
----------
= From: Daniel E. Renfer <duck@kronkltd.net>
Date:= Fri, May 1, 2009 at 14:46
To: lojban-list@lojban.org

I wish I knew the name of the book, but one time, ye= ars ago, they were
talking about this book on the radio that compiled a list of names and
the common associations with those names. (ie. Dexter tends to be nerdy, etc.)

The problem with unique names is it makes it impossible to find those
little personalized lisence plates or pencils for your kids. (my
children are named Tobias and Random)

Also, WRT the whole family line issue, my dad was adopted. So while I
still feel a connection to my last name, I am not really, technically a
Renfer.

- Daniel E. Renfer

----------
From: Michael Turniansky <= span dir=3D"ltr"><mturniansky@g= mail.com>
Date: Tue, May 5, 2009 at 16:49
To: lojban-list@lojban.org





=C2=A0 You might be thinking of "The Baby N= ame Survey Book" by Bruce Lansky, (and its sequel, "The New Baby = Name Survey" but then again, you might not.=C2=A0 (Interestingly enoug= h, there is a website, = about-name.com, that is doing the same thing).



I know how you feel, My kids also have unusual names= , at least in the generalized society, and even though they're not out = of place in my community (Orthodox Judaism), at least one (Rashi) has an un= usual name even for there....

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 --gejyspa

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0


----------
From: <= b class=3D"undefined">David290 <lojban-out@lojban.org>
Date: Sun, O= ct 11, 2009 at 04:46
To: lojban-list@lojban.org


Re: Logical Naming Conventions

Author: David290

Well, my Chinese name =E8=BE=BE=E6=9E=97,I born with, is meaningful, meanin= g "arrival to the forest". So, my lojbanic name is "klama= 9;u ricfoi".

----------
From: Oren <= get.oren@gmail.com>
= Date: 2009/10/11
To: lojban-list@lojban.org

my chinese name =E7=99=BD=E6=9D=BE, the surname carr= ies no meaning and the name means "pine tree," also my latin-alph= abet name Oren is hebrew for "pine tree," so mi'e .ku'us.=
--
=E7=99=BD=E6=9D=BE - Oren R= obinson
+86-15810101944

----------
= From: Michael Turniansky <<= a href=3D"mailto:mturniansky@gmail.com">mturniansky@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 09:38
To: lojban-list@lojban.org


=C2=A0 How do y= ou get "arrival" out of "klama'u"? =C2=A0That means= a "going
type of mature thing". (klama makcu).
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--gejyspa

----------
From: Oren <= get.oren@gmail.com>
= Date: 2009/10/12
To: lojban-list@lojban.org

It's poetic; the maturation, the fruition of a &= quot;klama" is an arrival, by virtue of it's default sumti!
Sent from Beijing, 11, China

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