From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBDrsernBBoEaZzlnw@googlegroups.com Sat Dec 04 11:39:38 2010 Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1POxxG-0001KF-49; Sat, 04 Dec 2010 11:39:38 -0800 Received: by yxn35 with SMTP id 35sf8942941yxn.16 for ; Sat, 04 Dec 2010 11:39:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=euLgzx7j6yqT4yqRcRW89YBEqV+ySDXdefDoMn5lPgg=; b=nVSHCmSPLB2JDLiEhqKcm3AL7cZIJCr7XFe03GotkW6AVWyUy2+v6v6fDGr20ergpK l/7Eh7vR9AgSdf9xzwyM0w3/s4svfzBdMy2CANq9xLnvnbCdzVtHOgHVwsDQUAb384NR YSe97tNMA/e10fcxRtBVoCHZZzwTETw09YHGQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=jD+HbWiP8qKZ8tIylzVqi0e0T2Innx3CSZOT5LODzqlM07Fg0R8r0zqP9T7ccsAeaT XQFNuH9KPNWF0J/dSyRIiIL8j/GepeqH6ooXGYp/xZetgAMKR9G+BO1Dq3OQsdCKbvJK pseoefigCirZMOTQretCwHKJJ6e0Y+lAOQjBw= Received: by 10.90.2.37 with SMTP id 37mr240940agb.30.1291491563136; Sat, 04 Dec 2010 11:39:23 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.141.220 with SMTP id n28ls4303003ibu.0.p; Sat, 04 Dec 2010 11:39:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.35.131 with SMTP id p3mr1423616ibd.11.1291491561702; Sat, 04 Dec 2010 11:39:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.35.131 with SMTP id p3mr1423615ibd.11.1291491561652; Sat, 04 Dec 2010 11:39:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iw0-f177.google.com (mail-iw0-f177.google.com [209.85.214.177]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id b32si1195121ibq.5.2010.12.04.11.39.20; Sat, 04 Dec 2010 11:39:20 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.177 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.177; Received: by iwn41 with SMTP id 41so1456631iwn.8 for ; Sat, 04 Dec 2010 11:39:20 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.15.75 with SMTP id j11mr3535543iba.45.1291491560457; Sat, 04 Dec 2010 11:39:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.199.206 with HTTP; Sat, 4 Dec 2010 11:39:20 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <787224.23807.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <787224.23807.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 14:39:20 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] na'e vs no'e/to'e From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.177 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00221534d527b1045904969acf0e --00221534d527b1045904969acf0e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 why would {no'e blabi} include "fast"? I'm confused by that statement. The purpose of "na'e", "to'e", "no'e", and "je'a" is to say "the word is in the same class, but on a different place on the scale". So I would understand {to'e blabi} to be black, {na'e blabi} to be anything not white and {no'e blabi} to be something like between {blabi} and {to'e blabi} so maybe some kind of gray in between. On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 2:26 PM, John E Clifford wrote: > Well. 'uinai' doesn't *mean* 'to'e gleki', though they are related (I > assume 'to'e' is a predicate polar negation) What, exactly is 'no'e'? > Apparently, from your remarks, it denies both extremes (as the negation and > o might lead one to expect, though I am not sure this thought entered into > its creation - it plays no obvious role in 'na'e', for example) for scalable > predicates. 'na'e' is the predicate version of 'na', contradictory negation. > giving the predicate of complement class and so a fundamental logical > concept. 'no'e' appears to be more complex, giving the intersection of the > classes for 'na'e' broda' and 'na'e to'e broda'. But, of course, that takes > in a lot more territory than the things "between" the extremes: it include, > in the white example, red, for instance, or fast. So. I suppose that 'no'e' > is meant to keep the the result on the same scale (as we do pragmatically > with 'na'e' often -- sometimes unjustifiably), in the example, the > grayscale, That might be useful, but I should think that the first thing to > do along that line was to assure that something just like 'na'e' worked in > that way. And then go on to the "definitely in the middle" case. > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* tijlan > *To:* lojban@googlegroups.com > *Sent:* Sat, December 4, 2010 10:15:59 AM > *Subject:* [lojban] na'e vs no'e/to'e > > How significant is "na'e" in relation to "no'e" and "to'e"? > > > CASE 1 -- when both the scalar extremities and the midpoint are > semantically clear: > > ti no'e blabi > This is neither white nor black. > > ti na'e blabi > This is other than white. > > > CASE 2 -- when the scalar extremities but not the midpoint are semantically > clear: > > ti no'e kalri > This is neither open nor closed. > > ti na'e kalri > This is other than open. > > > CASE 3 -- when neither the scalar extremities nor the midpoint are > semantically clear: > > ti no'e plise > This is neither an apple nor a tol-apple. > > ti na'e plise > This is other than an apple. > > > "no'e" seems to be capable of substituting for "na'e" in many cases, > especially in light of "to'e". We use "na'e" when we mean the absence of the > selbri's positive sense AND, possibly, opposite sense. If the negation of > both extremities is meant, that wouldn't be different from "no'e", would it? > If by "na'e blabi" I meant "other than white AND other than tol-white (= > black)" i.e. "grey", that would correspond to the neutral scalar region to > be denoted by "no'e blabi" i.e. "grey". > > It seems to me that "na'e blabi" means either "no'e blabi" or "to'e blabi". > "na'e" doesn't seem to have a unique explicit meaning other than being > ambiguous about the no'e/to'e distinction. What are we to make of this > ambiguity? Is it a useful one like the semantics of tanru, or should jbopre > learn to avoid using it by becoming more wary of the no'e/to'e distinction? > If not the latter (i.e. the ambiguity of "na'e" is useful), why is it that > "na'e" has no explicit attitudinal equivalent? "UInai" (opposite negation) > corresponds to "to'e SELBRI", not "na'e SELBRI" (e.g. "uinai" means "to'e > gleki", not "na'e gleki"), and "UIru'e" (weak affirmation) corresponds to > "je'aru'e SELBRI", not "na'e SELBRI" (e.g. "uiru'e" means "je'aru'e gleki", > not "na'e gleki"). > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --00221534d527b1045904969acf0e Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable why would {no'e blabi} include "fast"? =A0I'm confused by= that statement. =A0The purpose of "na'e", "to'e&quo= t;, "no'e", and "je'a" is to say "the word= is in the same class, but on a different place on the scale". =A0So I= would understand {to'e blabi} to be black, {na'e blabi} to be anyt= hing not white and {no'e blabi} to be something like between {blabi} an= d {to'e blabi} so maybe some kind of gray in between.

On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 2:26 PM, John E Cliff= ord <kali9putr= a@yahoo.com> wrote:
Well. 'uinai' doesn't *mean* 'to'e gleki',= though they are related (I assume 'to'e' is a predicate polar = negation)=A0 What, exactly is 'no'e'?=A0 Apparently, from your = remarks, it denies both extremes (as the negation and o might lead one to e= xpect, though I am not sure this thought entered into its creation - it pla= ys no obvious role in 'na'e', for example) for scalable predica= tes. 'na'e' is the predicate version of 'na', contradic= tory negation. giving the predicate of complement class and so a fundamenta= l logical concept.=A0 'no'e' appears to be more complex, giving= the intersection of the classes for 'na'e' broda' and '= ;na'e to'e broda'.=A0 But, of course, that takes in a lot more = territory than the things "between" the extremes: it include, in = the white example, red, for instance, or fast.=A0 So. I suppose that 'no'e' is meant to keep the the re= sult on the same scale (as we do pragmatically with 'na'e' ofte= n -- sometimes unjustifiably), in the example, the grayscale,=A0 That might= be useful, but I should think that the first thing to do along that line w= as to assure that something just like 'na'e' worked in that way= . And then go on to the "definitely in the middle" case.


= From: tijlan <jbotijlan@gmail.com> To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, December 4, 2010 10:15:5= 9 AM
Subject: [lojban] na'e v= s no'e/to'e

How significant is "na'e" in relation to "no'e"= and "to'e"?


CASE 1 -- when both the scalar extrem= ities and the midpoint are semantically clear:

ti no'e blabi
This is neither white nor black.

ti na'e blabi
This is other = than white.


CASE 2 -- when the scalar extremities but not the mi= dpoint are semantically clear:

ti no'e kalri
This is neither = open nor closed.

ti na'e kalri
This is other than open.


CASE 3 -- when= neither the scalar extremities nor the midpoint are semantically clear:
ti no'e plise
This is neither an apple nor a tol-apple.

ti na'e plise
This is other than an apple.


"no&#= 39;e" seems to be capable of substituting for "na'e" in = many cases, especially in light of "to'e". We use "na= 9;e"=A0when we mean the absence of the selbri's positive sense AND= , possibly, opposite sense. If the negation of both extremities is meant, t= hat wouldn't be different from "no'e", would it? If by &q= uot;na'e blabi" I meant "other than white AND other than tol-= white (=3D black)" i.e. "grey", that would correspond to the= neutral scalar region to be denoted by "no'e blabi" i.e. &qu= ot;grey".

It seems to me that "na'e blabi" means either "no= 9;e blabi" or "to'e blabi". "na'e" doesn&#= 39;t seem to have a unique explicit meaning other than being ambiguous abou= t the no'e/to'e distinction. What are we to make of this ambiguity?= Is it a useful one like the semantics of tanru, or should jbopre learn to = avoid using it by becoming more wary of the no'e/to'e distinction? = If not the latter (i.e. the ambiguity of "na'e" is useful), w= hy is it that "na'e" has no explicit attitudinal equivalent? = "UInai" (opposite negation) corresponds to "to'e SELBRI&= quot;, not "na'e SELBRI" (e.g. "uinai" means "= to'e gleki", not "na'e gleki"), and "UIru'e= " (weak affirmation) corresponds to "je'aru'e SELBRI"= ;, not "na'e SELBRI" (e.g. "uiru'e" means "= ;je'aru'e gleki", not "na'e gleki").

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