From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBDMternBBoEKbxtZQ@googlegroups.com Sat Dec 04 11:47:42 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1POy51-0001bH-Uy; Sat, 04 Dec 2010 11:47:42 -0800 Received: by gwj17 with SMTP id 17sf5987931gwj.16 for ; Sat, 04 Dec 2010 11:47:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=UeKXnjZyCN2L1IdwKVdsIOEJ514SWFzIwBvHn7Dorew=; b=U1th57UnAGLKadXv76N7W5m5fWKzYRdE3UuRvqJzxj0Pv0G9w1G3nbRwcZSYSxZIiE vwJhVNvumf4wO7SMs5YsZEvv3o9OFC0k7g+4mUyBIN7jQdRwpzvDPWTZrXx7SzOpTsGB yi3QpSLg0UAkr276kZksst32/AS6rZHqlea1c= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=4As3aml1CwCLl/+vYqbgt60m/rwyeDNnS9pzhMX76bCO4KFH8moTIwr2PZkgLtJfVF PXBmDgqwAXqFsXqNw6JthsOTtLHUq+Ogan/2Qm5w7yUyH1ryhahoaNqibW2maB9VfedF iAxOfxXWfU4s1j/ExQ0LcsiCegpfELTk708Mw= Received: by 10.147.170.4 with SMTP id x4mr146104yao.14.1291492044807; Sat, 04 Dec 2010 11:47:24 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.141.220 with SMTP id n28ls4305322ibu.0.p; Sat, 04 Dec 2010 11:47:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.33.70 with SMTP id g6mr1404001ibd.0.1291492044041; Sat, 04 Dec 2010 11:47:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.33.70 with SMTP id g6mr1403999ibd.0.1291492043981; Sat, 04 Dec 2010 11:47:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iw0-f176.google.com (mail-iw0-f176.google.com [209.85.214.176]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id m30si1198344ibu.2.2010.12.04.11.47.22; Sat, 04 Dec 2010 11:47:22 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.176 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.176; Received: by mail-iw0-f176.google.com with SMTP id 35so2422810iwn.21 for ; Sat, 04 Dec 2010 11:47:22 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.15.75 with SMTP id j11mr3543021iba.45.1291492042793; Sat, 04 Dec 2010 11:47:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.199.206 with HTTP; Sat, 4 Dec 2010 11:47:22 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <201012041420.15503.phma@phma.optus.nu> References: <201012041420.15503.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 14:47:22 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] na'e vs no'e/to'e From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.176 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00221534d52770e50904969aec86 --00221534d52770e50904969aec86 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Maybe door isn't a good example of what he was looking for with case 2. How about.... man, real world booleans are hard to come by. le prenu cu morsi gi'a to'e morsi In this case, I would expect {to'e morsi} to be equivalent to {na'e morsi} since if a person is not morsi, then they must be alive. So to be "not morsi" (regardless of whether it's just the usual 'not' or if it's the 'polar opposite not') is to be alive. I guess in this case it would be kind of absurd to speak of {no'e morsi}. = I guess you could reserve that for talking about zombies and such. .u'i On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 2:20 PM, Pierre Abbat wrote: > On Saturday 04 December 2010 11:15:59 tijlan wrote: > > How significant is "na'e" in relation to "no'e" and "to'e"? > > > > > > CASE 1 -- when both the scalar extremities and the midpoint are > > semantically clear: > > > > ti no'e blabi > > This is neither white nor black. > > > > ti na'e blabi > > This is other than white. > > lo to'e blabi cu xekri .i lo no'e blabi cu grusi .i lo na'e blabi cu xunr= e > ja > crino ja blanu jaco'e > > > CASE 2 -- when the scalar extremities but not the midpoint are > semantically > > clear: > > > > ti no'e kalri > > This is neither open nor closed. > > > > ti na'e kalri > > This is other than open. > > "no'e kalri" is "ajar", but "na'e kalri" could mean ajar or closed. A > door's > positions all lie on a scale from open to closed. Is there something else > which can be kalri ja ganlo but also has other positions? > > > CASE 3 -- when neither the scalar extremities nor the midpoint are > > semantically clear: > > > > ti no'e plise > > This is neither an apple nor a tol-apple. > > > > ti na'e plise > > This is other than an apple. > > lo krataigo .e lo perli .e lo fagjesyspa cu no'e plise. I also use "no'e" > with "smani"; lo norsmani is a strepsirrhine. "tolplise" and "tolsmani" > make > no sense to me. > > Pierre > -- > La sal en el mar es m=E1s que en la sangre. > Le sel dans la mer est plus que dans le sang. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --00221534d52770e50904969aec86 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Maybe door isn't a good example of what he was looking for with case 2.=

How about.... man, real world booleans are hard to come= by.

le prenu cu morsi gi'a to'e morsi

In this case, I would expect {to'e morsi} to be=A0e= quivalent=A0to {na'e morsi} since if a person is not morsi, then they m= ust be alive. =A0So to be "not morsi" (regardless of whether it&#= 39;s just the usual 'not' or if it's the 'polar opposite no= t') is to be alive.

I guess in this case it would be kind of absurd to spea= k of {no'e morsi}. =A0I guess you could reserve that for talking about = zombies and such. =A0.u'i

On Sat, Dec= 4, 2010 at 2:20 PM, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
On Saturday 04 December 2= 010 11:15:59 tijlan wrote:
> How significant is "na'e" in relation to "no'e&= quot; and "to'e"?
>
>
> CASE 1 -- when both the scalar extremities and the midpoint are
> semantically clear:
>
> ti no'e blabi
> This is neither white nor black.
>
> ti na'e blabi
> This is other than white.

lo to'e blabi cu xekri .i lo no'e blabi cu grusi .i lo na'= ;e blabi cu xunre ja
crino ja blanu jaco'e

> CASE 2 -- when the scalar extremities but not the midpoint are semanti= cally
> clear:
>
> ti no'e kalri
> This is neither open nor closed.
>
> ti na'e kalri
> This is other than open.

"no'e kalri" is "ajar", but "na'e ka= lri" could mean ajar or closed. A door's
positions all lie on a scale from open to closed. Is there something else which can be kalri ja ganlo but also has other positions?

> CASE 3 -- when neither the scalar extremities nor the midpoint are
> semantically clear:
>
> ti no'e plise
> This is neither an apple nor a tol-apple.
>
> ti na'e plise
> This is other than an apple.

lo krataigo .e lo perli .e lo fagjesyspa cu no'e plise. I also us= e "no'e"
with "smani"; lo norsmani is a strepsirrhine. "tolplise"= ; and "tolsmani" make
no sense to me.

Pierre
--
La sal en el mar es m=E1s que en la sangre.
Le sel dans la mer est plus que dans le sang.

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