From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCp5OrnBBoE_GuCYQ@googlegroups.com Sat Dec 04 13:27:21 2010 Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1POzdT-0000Nj-Rl; Sat, 04 Dec 2010 13:27:21 -0800 Received: by yxn35 with SMTP id 35sf8983725yxn.16 for ; Sat, 04 Dec 2010 13:27:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=VdlxRKb6l6spUauzcfHare++jjuYMRpelJ+BXLRKxMA=; b=7INlYO3yZkpfNZNIZ0ho+7j0TJIY2qVlaB+O2h/61BMbBOvH/ibBpqd/Vb10z0tFf4 yRd/RmXPX0hlrtLTDeRBJYUntJQLPqjttqEOTeD2RxDrbY3mavmltnglAG1ILFeswzVj NYSQXZ326GMRj6u0Tu0OPDG+UiUbD7t8b6nLQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=PX2ZSp+u1wfS/s4lOvPoInbV+B1jUPhw/2F2l1r2rD5lo72q5DyJX5oKPb/uUq8VH/ 4hcR8jdABvdtmh4fgOI3xl59N/lw0kr4rN0QUhu7A6XdEtSmGzYKYP+YxDtp4/8i1MV1 Dwehlu4b+Qp2M1a57aWpNIoYETvtqprY3VFTc= Received: by 10.150.68.35 with SMTP id q35mr387205yba.12.1291498025042; Sat, 04 Dec 2010 13:27:05 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.150.99.19 with SMTP id w19ls3130340ybb.0.p; Sat, 04 Dec 2010 13:27:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.150.197.21 with SMTP id u21mr779989ybf.53.1291498024336; Sat, 04 Dec 2010 13:27:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.150.197.21 with SMTP id u21mr779987ybf.53.1291498024281; Sat, 04 Dec 2010 13:27:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.118]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id g34si581358ybc.11.2010.12.04.13.27.02; Sat, 04 Dec 2010 13:27:03 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.118 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.118; Received: (qmail 55842 invoked by uid 60001); 4 Dec 2010 21:27:02 -0000 Message-ID: <461951.47064.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: 4LcII_UVM1lEhhIumb_6Ef.Pa.s2hRHJ.7PCzv.FTlEe5RR _.OBAPKjyGF1Lsuv9yAxjeFhb9XKEPCkQ.JgsvQDlE4bX0XaXup24Z.nNgMj 9d2PttagYmWoDgoi7KB5e12XWZZ3uX_EM.zRIv6_zNHvvoR.9wWLuNKH8_48 H7CFqG8B3SJMrizujYD6fBydY7Q2pe3b4ZTMslwEs8Iqx0SWOL5u6Ysvbuhp 9euORYADUNWKdQXLHYJ9GG.bALc_BI12F.dBfIRNR6oFDRa1ZEW4kxatenW5 ZyyTjE_RHPmdc_PU4Pvp4D4RroSBPvaKzxRZYc10vj1NbeYgHiOAG3YDk3x_ kQExJIOlUEheDXdu0uliYgYL_48DmiBdZdYC8O9D_7fiwMhwGjMn4Fby1 Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 04 Dec 2010 13:27:02 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/553 YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.285259 References: <787224.23807.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 13:27:02 -0800 (PST) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] na'e vs no'e/to'e To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.118 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1731657682-1291498022=:47064" --0-1731657682-1291498022=:47064 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 The question is, what's the same class? Shades, colors, ..., properties? It is unspecifed, and so, like 'na' itself, everything else is open. Contextually, of course, we always pull it down, but without a lot more to go on, "red' is certainly as likely as "gray". ________________________________ From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, December 4, 2010 1:39:20 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] na'e vs no'e/to'e why would {no'e blabi} include "fast"? I'm confused by that statement. The purpose of "na'e", "to'e", "no'e", and "je'a" is to say "the word is in the same class, but on a different place on the scale". So I would understand {to'e blabi} to be black, {na'e blabi} to be anything not white and {no'e blabi} to be something like between {blabi} and {to'e blabi} so maybe some kind of gray in between. On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 2:26 PM, John E Clifford wrote: Well. 'uinai' doesn't *mean* 'to'e gleki', though they are related (I assume 'to'e' is a predicate polar negation) What, exactly is 'no'e'? Apparently, from your remarks, it denies both extremes (as the negation and o might lead one to expect, though I am not sure this thought entered into its creation - it plays no obvious role in 'na'e', for example) for scalable predicates. 'na'e' is the predicate version of 'na', contradictory negation. giving the predicate of complement class and so a fundamental logical concept. 'no'e' appears to be more complex, giving the intersection of the classes for 'na'e' broda' and 'na'e to'e broda'. But, of course, that takes in a lot more territory than the things "between" the extremes: it include, in the white example, red, for instance, or fast. So. I suppose that 'no'e' is meant to keep the the result on the same scale (as we do pragmatically with 'na'e' often -- sometimes unjustifiably), in the example, the grayscale, That might be useful, but I should think that the first thing to do along that line was to assure that something just like 'na'e' worked in that way. And then go on to the "definitely in the middle" case. > > > > > > ________________________________ From: tijlan >To: lojban@googlegroups.com >Sent: Sat, December 4, 2010 10:15:59 AM >Subject: [lojban] na'e vs no'e/to'e > > >How significant is "na'e" in relation to "no'e" and "to'e"? > > >CASE 1 -- when both the scalar extremities and the midpoint are semantically >clear: > >ti no'e blabi >This is neither white nor black. > >ti na'e blabi >This is other than white. > > >CASE 2 -- when the scalar extremities but not the midpoint are semantically >clear: > >ti no'e kalri >This is neither open nor closed. > >ti na'e kalri >This is other than open. > > >CASE 3 -- when neither the scalar extremities nor the midpoint are semantically >clear: > >ti no'e plise >This is neither an apple nor a tol-apple. > >ti na'e plise >This is other than an apple. > > >"no'e" seems to be capable of substituting for "na'e" in many cases, especially >in light of "to'e". We use "na'e" when we mean the absence of the selbri's >positive sense AND, possibly, opposite sense. If the negation of both >extremities is meant, that wouldn't be different from "no'e", would it? If by >"na'e blabi" I meant "other than white AND other than tol-white (= black)" i.e. >"grey", that would correspond to the neutral scalar region to be denoted by >"no'e blabi" i.e. "grey". > >It seems to me that "na'e blabi" means either "no'e blabi" or "to'e blabi". >"na'e" doesn't seem to have a unique explicit meaning other than being ambiguous >about the no'e/to'e distinction. What are we to make of this ambiguity? Is it a >useful one like the semantics of tanru, or should jbopre learn to avoid using it >by becoming more wary of the no'e/to'e distinction? If not the latter (i.e. the >ambiguity of "na'e" is useful), why is it that "na'e" has no explicit >attitudinal equivalent? "UInai" (opposite negation) corresponds to "to'e >SELBRI", not "na'e SELBRI" (e.g. "uinai" means "to'e gleki", not "na'e gleki"), >and "UIru'e" (weak affirmation) corresponds to "je'aru'e SELBRI", not "na'e >SELBRI" (e.g. "uiru'e" means "je'aru'e gleki", not "na'e gleki"). > -- >You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >"lojban" group. >To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >For more options, visit this group at >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > -- >You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >"lojban" group. >To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >For more options, visit this group at >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0-1731657682-1291498022=:47064 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The question is, what's the same class? Shades, colors, .= .., properties?  It is unspecifed, and so, like 'na' itself, everythin= g else is open.  Contextually, of course, we always pull it down, but = without a lot more to go on, "red' is certainly as likely as "gray".


<= span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">From: Luke Bergen <lukeaber= gen@gmail.com>
To: l= ojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, December 4, 2010 1:39:20 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] na'e vs no'e/to'e

why would {no'e blabi} include "fast"?  I'm confused by that statement= .  The purpose of "na'e", "to'e", "no'e", and "je'a" is to say "the wo= rd is in the same class, but on a different place on the scale".  So I= would understand {to'e blabi} to be black, {na'e blabi} to be anything not= white and {no'e blabi} to be something like between {blabi} and {to'e blab= i} so maybe some kind of gray in between.

On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 2:26 PM, John E Cliff= ord <kali9putr= a@yahoo.com> wrote:
Well. 'uinai' doesn't *mean* 'to'e gleki', though they are rel= ated (I assume 'to'e' is a predicate polar negation)  What, exactly is= 'no'e'?  Apparently, from your remarks, it denies both extremes (as t= he negation and o might lead one to expect, though I am not sure this thoug= ht entered into its creation - it plays no obvious role in 'na'e', for exam= ple) for scalable predicates. 'na'e' is the predicate version of 'na', cont= radictory negation. giving the predicate of complement class and so a funda= mental logical concept.  'no'e' appears to be more complex, giving the= intersection of the classes for 'na'e' broda' and 'na'e to'e broda'. = But, of course, that takes in a lot more territory than the things "betwee= n" the extremes: it include, in the white example, red, for instance, or fast.  So. I suppose that 'no'e' is meant to keep the the result on t= he same scale (as we do pragmatically with 'na'e' often -- sometimes unjust= ifiably), in the example, the grayscale,  That might be useful, but I = should think that the first thing to do along that line was to assure that = something just like 'na'e' worked in that way. And then go on to the "defin= itely in the middle" case.



From: tijlan <<= a rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:jbotijlan@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"= href=3D"mailto:jbotijlan@gmail.com">jbotijlan@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, December 4, 2010 10:15:59 AM
Subject: [lojban] na'e vs no'e/to'e

How significant is "na'e" in relation to "no'e" and "to'e"?


CASE= 1 -- when both the scalar extremities and the midpoint are semantically cl= ear:

ti no'e blabi
This is neither white nor black.

ti na'e blabi
This is other than= white.


CASE 2 -- when the scalar extremities but not the midpoi= nt are semantically clear:

ti no'e kalri
This is neither open nor= closed.

ti na'e kalri
This is other than open.


CASE 3 -- when nei= ther the scalar extremities nor the midpoint are semantically clear:
ti no'e plise
This is neither an apple nor a tol-apple.

ti na'e plise
This is other than an apple.


"no'e" seems t= o be capable of substituting for "na'e" in many cases, especially in light = of "to'e". We use "na'e" when we mean the absence of the selbri's posi= tive sense AND, possibly, opposite sense. If the negation of both extremiti= es is meant, that wouldn't be different from "no'e", would it? If by "na'e = blabi" I meant "other than white AND other than tol-white (=3D black)" i.e.= "grey", that would correspond to the neutral scalar region to be denoted b= y "no'e blabi" i.e. "grey".

It seems to me that "na'e blabi" means either "no'e blabi" or "to'e bla= bi". "na'e" doesn't seem to have a unique explicit meaning other than being= ambiguous about the no'e/to'e distinction. What are we to make of this amb= iguity? Is it a useful one like the semantics of tanru, or should jbopre le= arn to avoid using it by becoming more wary of the no'e/to'e distinction? I= f not the latter (i.e. the ambiguity of "na'e" is useful), why is it that "= na'e" has no explicit attitudinal equivalent? "UInai" (opposite negation) c= orresponds to "to'e SELBRI", not "na'e SELBRI" (e.g. "uinai" means "to'e gl= eki", not "na'e gleki"), and "UIru'e" (weak affirmation) corresponds to "je= 'aru'e SELBRI", not "na'e SELBRI" (e.g. "uiru'e" means "je'aru'e gleki", no= t "na'e gleki").

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