From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRCm_f3nBBoE1LibKw@googlegroups.com Wed Dec 08 04:48:57 2010 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PQJRw-0001uf-Uk; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 04:48:57 -0800 Received: by wwb34 with SMTP id 34sf955640wwb.16 for ; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 04:48:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=COCAu+iWwKKeqo8zgmyidcBhU1DuVbf953Zn/Yi09t4=; b=yIOvEiJQh7lObWXwxV8il9PKLo8i3l5G8Vi6jo6No7xHPMAOh8vAmISeyGAJ2m7rpc hkXsCOar/V25eLaI5siuPSXsV1mfTUf2Y5YESy3p6AQbFpb9UM5O/yBjNNqiu3V9zhDZ x8QRBVrZA0J/zH0Va46VEY2bIrAWCl34TWdI8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=EPCs2MwixYx8nSCcVmiWu7ElEXYtTqIDV6bTN0NC0UAzuGvwAk8kXvhz62twuVG0hd 0zsfov4Zy4gfHvGyxZh9fGbj2/w1PsGQ/gW2Zg13WSFFOLoX/zwzWOv5wiaCYWxBziW1 mganRmkRPSu1luFbsQkikA0I2qdVSgFkP2cY0= Received: by 10.216.169.132 with SMTP id n4mr107540wel.1.1291812518041; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 04:48:38 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.226.148 with SMTP id b20ls273323weq.0.p; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 04:48:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.23.129 with SMTP id v1mr37109wev.10.1291812517007; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 04:48:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.23.129 with SMTP id v1mr37108wev.10.1291812516951; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 04:48:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wy0-f175.google.com (mail-wy0-f175.google.com [74.125.82.175]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id x80si58257weq.4.2010.12.08.04.48.35; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 04:48:35 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.175 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.175; Received: by wyb40 with SMTP id 40so1035168wyb.34 for ; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 04:48:35 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.9.132 with SMTP id l4mr3870798wbl.144.1291812515791; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 04:48:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.54.72 with HTTP; Wed, 8 Dec 2010 04:48:35 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 09:48:35 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] conditional and hypotetical sentences From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.175 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 6:40 AM, Remo Dentato wrote: > After having read CLL 14 many times, I'm still very confused on Lojban > connectives. > > Specifically I don't get how I can consistenly translate hypotetical > and conditional sentences. The first thing you need to do is forget about associating "if" with connectives. In English, "if" is a subordinating conjunction, not a coordinating conjunction, so you should not expect it to be translated with a connective anyway. (There is a marginal use of "if" that can be sort of reproduced with a connective, but that's a marginal use of "if", not its main use, and you should not start with that.) > For example: > "If I had wings, I could fly" va'o lo nu da'i mi se nalci kei mi kakne lo nu vofli "da'i" marks my having wings as a hypothetical situation. > "If you study, you will learn" va'o lo nu do tadni kei do ba cilre > And also more complicated (with tenses) > > "If you had gone to the store, we wouln't have to eat pizza tonight" va'o lo nu da'i do pu klama lo zarci kei mi'o na bilga lo nu citka lo pitnanba ca lo cabnicte > It seems to me that {nu'o} and {pu'i} should play a role here but I > could not tell why! I don't think I have ever found a good use for "nu'o" and "pu'i" yet. They are a strange mix of "ka'e" and "pu(nai)", but Lojban generally keeps modality and tense separate, so having these two words that mix them together is odd. > Anyone could shed a light on this? Or direct me to material I can look at? There have been hundreds of discussions about how to deal with "if" that you could find in the archives, but I don't know of any especially enlightening one. mu'o mi'e xorxes -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.