From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBCNtf7nBBoEAHgGEA@googlegroups.com Wed Dec 08 06:48:00 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PQLJA-00029W-QE; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 06:47:59 -0800 Received: by gwj17 with SMTP id 17sf1107867gwj.16 for ; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 06:47:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=flRP1f8EfLqNzNA/+zP6x6xGX6wTa7uM2AMMDtIKeUc=; b=voiReW1posb2uOmpOomJA6Z3MglCi706Axz8Lf+07R/h7UVqc4d5m8Lvu4nRsBBCph cV9nd4eKsptYCcdDrztULAc4CMMcdtNFwIL0GGLDSFMzE8NZbY3OSYpZlMWHSAQVVp85 QReKipUAY4aKrda88meMI/Aw7MYe9yvsdW5iM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=X3WkfrXP4dHiLuGwz9Dnl8yOZN498LrqcUgg4sdcg/L2OPyC0kVoabmn7YE8O2SHG/ vLflIRzwLQfCgBLFsLwEu/i+Awsl/605qBmcCN+XyFZgtyA1+GyOjhRgegVZ+LMuvN2H cSRLAxGP45yN7K8QJmF9oo6Lk9ydq2toV13cg= Received: by 10.91.174.6 with SMTP id b6mr191960agp.56.1291819661868; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 06:47:41 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.19.201 with SMTP id c9ls318489ibb.1.p; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 06:47:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.17.203 with SMTP id t11mr4104279iba.18.1291819660651; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 06:47:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.17.203 with SMTP id t11mr4104276iba.18.1291819660552; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 06:47:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iw0-f177.google.com (mail-iw0-f177.google.com [209.85.214.177]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id m30si253301ibu.2.2010.12.08.06.47.39; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 06:47:39 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.177 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.177; Received: by iwn38 with SMTP id 38so1834391iwn.8 for ; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 06:47:39 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.39.199 with SMTP id h7mr1848897ibe.70.1291819659258; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 06:47:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.199.206 with HTTP; Wed, 8 Dec 2010 06:47:39 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 09:47:39 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] conditional and hypotetical sentences From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.177 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=002215048f67e770c80496e733f3 --002215048f67e770c80496e733f3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> It seems to me that {nu'o} and {pu'i} should play a role here but I >> could not tell why! > > I don't think I have ever found a good use for "nu'o" and "pu'i" yet. > They are a strange mix of "ka'e" and "pu(nai)", but Lojban generally > keeps modality and tense separate, so having these two words that mix > them together is odd. It's good to hear a much more experienced lojbanist say this. I've felt guilty for some time now for not using those guys more often but they just confuse the hell out of me and never seem to be the right thing. For that matter, "ka'e" seems kind of odd as well. Is there a version of "ka'e" tha= t doesn't have that irritating "innate" aspect of it? I don't {ka'e limna}, but I {kakne lo nu limna}. We've got: innately able (generic, don't care if you have done it or not), non-innately (learned) able AND has exercised this learned ability, and non-innately (learned) able AND has NOT exercised this learned ability. What if I don't care about whether I've exercised the learned behavior yet= ? I want the generic aspect of ka'e but the non-innateness of nu'o/pu'i. Does that exist in some cmavo I've never noticed before? 2010/12/8 Jorge Llamb=EDas > On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 6:40 AM, Remo Dentato wrote: > > After having read CLL 14 many times, I'm still very confused on Lojban > > connectives. > > > > Specifically I don't get how I can consistenly translate hypotetical > > and conditional sentences. > > The first thing you need to do is forget about associating "if" with > connectives. In English, "if" is a subordinating conjunction, not a > coordinating conjunction, so you should not expect it to be translated > with a connective anyway. (There is a marginal use of "if" that can be > sort of reproduced with a connective, but that's a marginal use of > "if", not its main use, and you should not start with that.) > > > For example: > > "If I had wings, I could fly" > > va'o lo nu da'i mi se nalci kei mi kakne lo nu vofli > > "da'i" marks my having wings as a hypothetical situation. > > > "If you study, you will learn" > > va'o lo nu do tadni kei do ba cilre > > > And also more complicated (with tenses) > > > > "If you had gone to the store, we wouln't have to eat pizza tonight" > > va'o lo nu da'i do pu klama lo zarci kei mi'o na bilga lo nu citka > lo pitnanba ca lo cabnicte > > > It seems to me that {nu'o} and {pu'i} should play a role here but I > > could not tell why! > > I don't think I have ever found a good use for "nu'o" and "pu'i" yet. > They are a strange mix of "ka'e" and "pu(nai)", but Lojban generally > keeps modality and tense separate, so having these two words that mix > them together is odd. > > > Anyone could shed a light on this? Or direct me to material I can look > at? > > There have been hundreds of discussions about how to deal with "if" > that you could find in the archives, but I don't know of any > especially enlightening one. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --002215048f67e770c80496e733f3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>> It seems to me that {nu= 9;o} and {pu'i} should play a role here but I
>> could not tell = why!
>
> I don't= think I have ever found a good use for "nu'o" and "pu&#= 39;i" yet.
> They are a strange mix of "ka'e" and "pu(nai)"= , but Lojban generally
> keeps modality and tense separate, so having= these two words that mix
> them together is odd.

It's good to hear a much more experienced lojbanist say this. = =A0I've felt guilty for some time now for not using those guys more oft= en but they just confuse the hell out of me and never seem to be the right = thing. =A0For that matter, "ka'e" seems kind of odd as well. = =A0Is there a version of "ka'e" that doesn't have that ir= ritating "innate" aspect of it? =A0I don't {ka'e limna}, = but I {kakne lo nu limna}.

We've got: innately able (generic, don't care i= f you have done it or not), non-innately (learned) able AND has exercised t= his learned ability, and non-innately (learned) able AND has NOT exercised = this learned ability. =A0What if I don't care about whether I've ex= ercised the learned behavior yet? =A0I want the generic aspect of ka'e = but the non-innateness of nu'o/pu'i. =A0Does that exist in some cma= vo I've never noticed before?

2010/12/8 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com= >
On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 6:40 AM, Remo Dentato <rdentato@gmail.com> wrote:
> After having read CLL 14 many times, I'm still very confused on Lo= jban
> connectives.
>
> Specifically I don't get how I can consistenly translate hypotetic= al
> and conditional sentences.

The first thing you need to do is forget about associating "if&q= uot; with
connectives. In English, "if" is a subordinating conjunction, not= a
coordinating conjunction, so you should not expect it to be translated
with a connective anyway. (There is a marginal use of "if" that c= an be
sort of reproduced with a connective, but that's a marginal use of
"if", not its main use, and you should not start with that.)

> For example:
> "If I had wings, I could fly"

=A0 =A0va'o lo nu da'i mi se nalci kei mi kakne lo nu vofli<= br>
"da'i" marks my having wings as a hypothetical situation.

> "If you study, you will learn"

=A0 va'o lo nu do tadni kei do ba cilre

> And also more complicated (with tenses)
>
> "If you had gone to the store, we wouln't have to eat pizza t= onight"

=A0va'o lo nu da'i do pu klama lo zarci kei mi'o na bilg= a lo nu citka
lo pitnanba ca lo cabnicte

> It seems to me that {nu'o} and {pu'i} should play a role here = but I
> could not tell why!

I don't think I have ever found a good use for "nu'o&quo= t; and "pu'i" yet.
They are a strange mix of "ka'e" and "pu(nai)", but= Lojban generally
keeps modality and tense separate, so having these two words that mix
them together is odd.

> Anyone could shed a light on this? Or direct me to material I can look= at?

There have been hundreds of discussions about how to deal with "= if"
that you could find in the archives, but I don't know of any
especially enlightening one.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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