From lojban+bncCK7Yk5CUCxDDuP7nBBoEzDKAhA@googlegroups.com Wed Dec 08 06:55:23 2010 Received: from mail-qy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PQLQE-0002NB-Hh; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 06:55:23 -0800 Received: by qyk1 with SMTP id 1sf1330777qyk.16 for ; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 06:55:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=1228GmxayHzVsMqHNwO9XTFnb7X56b4ksUShC5p8Q7I=; b=nR+T/vxbuXK7qVV+NimhMt/vz8G6WdBTAAEigGefORBR76QaHO04rR2jti+TuP4Kgg 0c8xs1v/rwCTfLCydPyHaM+gJ0bDjKwl7cXmkY9f4z+AcBM66qmH56VfxmEll5tNMcew 5zmuTsMhIYFCfhqTo9cEqQDpTIrXjq9u7kR8U= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Ov+NHHhbN445T4XV3iyJTWlJnSyDn1/VYj4dZc0t7DpEuYnPMliR04AE9PvorEWxgj dp34Sgb7ZmBVFok4LvqCAwD1Otho6pxzyhA9n+byc396lSDSMFz6GFihAURzGBJrJITN GBpKknUi4OC+W7sVQGes0yCcdqsrmbyTmWo30= Received: by 10.224.74.73 with SMTP id t9mr266987qaj.41.1291820099964; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 06:54:59 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.3.230 with SMTP id 38ls162361qao.0.p; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 06:54:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.224.37.139 with SMTP id x11mr924740qad.17.1291820099498; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 06:54:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.224.37.139 with SMTP id x11mr924739qad.17.1291820099447; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 06:54:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qw0-f53.google.com (mail-qw0-f53.google.com [209.85.216.53]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id y15si123228qce.11.2010.12.08.06.54.58; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 06:54:58 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rdentato@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.53 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.53; Received: by mail-qw0-f53.google.com with SMTP id 5so1467567qwe.26 for ; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 06:54:58 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.189.20 with SMTP id dc20mr7457683qcb.125.1291820098278; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 06:54:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.229.227.73 with HTTP; Wed, 8 Dec 2010 06:54:58 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 15:54:58 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] conditional and hypotetical sentences From: Remo Dentato To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: rdentato@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rdentato@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.53 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rdentato@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks xorxes. I see that "under conditions" works very well for those sentences. I still have to understand how to use the connectives then, but I can think about it at a later stage :) remod 2010/12/8 Jorge Llamb=EDas : > On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 6:40 AM, Remo Dentato wrote: >> After having read CLL 14 many times, I'm still very confused on Lojban >> connectives. >> >> Specifically I don't get how I can consistenly translate hypotetical >> and conditional sentences. > > The first thing you need to do is forget about associating "if" with > connectives. In English, "if" is a subordinating conjunction, not a > coordinating conjunction, so you should not expect it to be translated > with a connective anyway. (There is a marginal use of "if" that can be > sort of reproduced with a connective, but that's a marginal use of > "if", not its main use, and you should not start with that.) > >> For example: >> "If I had wings, I could fly" > > =A0 =A0va'o lo nu da'i mi se nalci kei mi kakne lo nu vofli > > "da'i" marks my having wings as a hypothetical situation. > >> "If you study, you will learn" > > =A0 va'o lo nu do tadni kei do ba cilre > >> And also more complicated (with tenses) >> >> "If you had gone to the store, we wouln't have to eat pizza tonight" > > =A0va'o lo nu da'i do pu klama lo zarci kei mi'o na bilga lo nu citka > lo pitnanba ca lo cabnicte > >> It seems to me that {nu'o} and {pu'i} should play a role here but I >> could not tell why! > > I don't think I have ever found a good use for "nu'o" and "pu'i" yet. > They are a strange mix of "ka'e" and "pu(nai)", but Lojban generally > keeps modality and tense separate, so having these two words that mix > them together is odd. > >> Anyone could shed a light on this? Or direct me to material I can look a= t? > > There have been hundreds of discussions about how to deal with "if" > that you could find in the archives, but I don't know of any > especially enlightening one. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.