From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBCtwv7nBBoET7ZtMA@googlegroups.com Wed Dec 08 07:16:24 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PQLkV-0007Ar-AJ; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 07:16:24 -0800 Received: by ywh1 with SMTP id 1sf1124445ywh.16 for ; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 07:16:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=znqSuhjZCImm//Pd61tkK16dvfM1J3bdTujnuXEhqT4=; b=PhYOHj9whca153Ekoe5uDcTy+dk8xT/KyChFuRNwMsXcByF8O3sI0B5JPcKok5dRAx DOQ643d547i9yg962iRsL1E6uhzPbJpumcBong+fsh04j6AV+48+d9yg24UVQFXHAKY/ QCVcd2KWF4sQVLraCxG/185OIys40pKcSe/VU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=fpdzUxB1Fj41z/Lg0cBuvDSukgoDUKViOwaIYbGsRdY5XLxX15m9OXrVmf25ICUnrh Ev87FAqvAXhxD47hNTeIejwz+f8G/uqesC/CBsV/JcIxeukOc2ejtGJEcSAmmHpL3BEi Qn/dUyqaIyGCn7KlTnsNjo0sKXSS+FtEaHLTg= Received: by 10.150.172.6 with SMTP id u6mr236304ybe.77.1291821357341; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 07:15:57 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.76.165 with SMTP id c37ls325659ibk.3.p; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 07:15:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.199.207 with SMTP id et15mr2340953ibb.12.1291821356265; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 07:15:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.199.207 with SMTP id et15mr2340952ibb.12.1291821356202; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 07:15:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iw0-f172.google.com (mail-iw0-f172.google.com [209.85.214.172]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id cu19si260468ibb.5.2010.12.08.07.15.55; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 07:15:55 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.172 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.172; Received: by mail-iw0-f172.google.com with SMTP id 40so1919306iwn.31 for ; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 07:15:55 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.19.74 with SMTP id z10mr9197350iba.120.1291821354889; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 07:15:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.199.206 with HTTP; Wed, 8 Dec 2010 07:15:54 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 10:15:54 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] conditional and hypotetical sentences From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.172 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00221532cd10f8b14d0496e798db --00221532cd10f8b14d0496e798db Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think that in general the connectives have a much narrower scope in lojba= n than in english. Even "and" for example. I think I use JOI more than I use A. On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 9:54 AM, Remo Dentato wrote: > Thanks xorxes. I see that "under conditions" works very well for those > sentences. I still have to understand how to use the connectives then, > but I can think about it at a later stage :) > > remod > > > 2010/12/8 Jorge Llamb=EDas : > > On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 6:40 AM, Remo Dentato wrote= : > >> After having read CLL 14 many times, I'm still very confused on Lojban > >> connectives. > >> > >> Specifically I don't get how I can consistenly translate hypotetical > >> and conditional sentences. > > > > The first thing you need to do is forget about associating "if" with > > connectives. In English, "if" is a subordinating conjunction, not a > > coordinating conjunction, so you should not expect it to be translated > > with a connective anyway. (There is a marginal use of "if" that can be > > sort of reproduced with a connective, but that's a marginal use of > > "if", not its main use, and you should not start with that.) > > > >> For example: > >> "If I had wings, I could fly" > > > > va'o lo nu da'i mi se nalci kei mi kakne lo nu vofli > > > > "da'i" marks my having wings as a hypothetical situation. > > > >> "If you study, you will learn" > > > > va'o lo nu do tadni kei do ba cilre > > > >> And also more complicated (with tenses) > >> > >> "If you had gone to the store, we wouln't have to eat pizza tonight" > > > > va'o lo nu da'i do pu klama lo zarci kei mi'o na bilga lo nu citka > > lo pitnanba ca lo cabnicte > > > >> It seems to me that {nu'o} and {pu'i} should play a role here but I > >> could not tell why! > > > > I don't think I have ever found a good use for "nu'o" and "pu'i" yet. > > They are a strange mix of "ka'e" and "pu(nai)", but Lojban generally > > keeps modality and tense separate, so having these two words that mix > > them together is odd. > > > >> Anyone could shed a light on this? Or direct me to material I can look > at? > > > > There have been hundreds of discussions about how to deal with "if" > > that you could find in the archives, but I don't know of any > > especially enlightening one. > > > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --00221532cd10f8b14d0496e798db Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think that in general the connectives have a much narrower scope in lojba= n than in english.

Even "and" for example. =A0= I think I use JOI more than I use A.

On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 9:54 AM, Remo Dentato <rdentato@gmail.com> wrote:
=
Thanks xorxes. I see that "under conditions" works very well for = those
sentences. I still have to understand how to use the connectives then,
but I can think about it at a later stage :)

remod


2010/12/8 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjll= ambias@gmail.com>:
> On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 6:40 AM, Remo= Dentato <rdentato@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:
>> After having read CLL 14 many times, I'm still very confused o= n Lojban
>> connectives.
>>
>> Specifically I don't get how I can consistenly translate hypot= etical
>> and conditional sentences.
>
> The first thing you need to do is forget about associating "if&qu= ot; with
> connectives. In English, "if" is a subordinating conjunction= , not a
> coordinating conjunction, so you should not expect it to be translated=
> with a connective anyway. (There is a marginal use of "if" t= hat can be
> sort of reproduced with a connective, but that's a marginal use of=
> "if", not its main use, and you should not start with that.)=
>
>> For example:
>> "If I had wings, I could fly"
>
> =A0 =A0va'o lo nu da'i mi se nalci kei mi kakne lo nu vofli >
> "da'i" marks my having wings as a hypothetical situation= .
>
>> "If you study, you will learn"
>
> =A0 va'o lo nu do tadni kei do ba cilre
>
>> And also more complicated (with tenses)
>>
>> "If you had gone to the store, we wouln't have to eat piz= za tonight"
>
> =A0va'o lo nu da'i do pu klama lo zarci kei mi'o na bilga = lo nu citka
> lo pitnanba ca lo cabnicte
>
>> It seems to me that {nu'o} and {pu'i} should play a role h= ere but I
>> could not tell why!
>
> I don't think I have ever found a good use for "nu'o"= ; and "pu'i" yet.
> They are a strange mix of "ka'e" and "pu(nai)"= , but Lojban generally
> keeps modality and tense separate, so having these two words that mix<= br> > them together is odd.
>
>> Anyone could shed a light on this? Or direct me to material I can = look at?
>
> There have been hundreds of discussions about how to deal with "i= f"
> that you could find in the archives, but I don't know of any
> especially enlightening one.
>
> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/= lojban?hl=3Den.
>
>

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