From lojban+bncCNf8pM-bDBD50f7nBBoEh47FhQ@googlegroups.com Wed Dec 08 07:49:42 2010 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PQMGj-0002E2-S5; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 07:49:42 -0800 Received: by wwb34 with SMTP id 34sf1078462wwb.16 for ; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 07:49:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received :sender:received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=TsfSAZBdYrfra68OBHZwDtRk0iG/VIGXEN88A3FF/LY=; b=W9vCb2YPmhgpiX4vDi/k7LGNMYghCY+g/BYAGC0C2ofjpYnhNKI07RNPlkn1Ylv2gl NIPao4xhYNWIUmnBoPkvUWqtpEeY+J+HsKUZkSODtxlZ2ZY2304e93JUt+c+MEh2/XSa LnbF9mYgTz+/bckYf7cHyEMrdF3poun78UhCM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=bAEstvqezmsM8Fjohj4UceVBjBWNVLHvcFWuho8oUhF0eseNI3bCWUMsbM+lR/F7+7 wvJ2KbaWDeKjndAVajW+yzOZ8K9nUdcHG++OvIwTxN+R/RJLJwH9ixirFb+PBSH8w2qx fcYSzEUwftb08mhacoDnHvZrbqDBOXZDHQoIY= Received: by 10.216.82.142 with SMTP id o14mr404945wee.27.1291823353976; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 07:49:13 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.208.4 with SMTP id p4ls349279weo.2.p; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 07:49:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.171.75 with SMTP id q53mr49785wel.13.1291823352805; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 07:49:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.145.3 with SMTP id b3mr381484wbv.9.1291807843594; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 03:30:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.145.3 with SMTP id b3mr381483wbv.9.1291807843518; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 03:30:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ww0-f45.google.com (mail-ww0-f45.google.com [74.125.82.45]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id y33si81903wbd.6.2010.12.08.03.30.42; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 03:30:42 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.45 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.45; Received: by wwb29 with SMTP id 29so1034896wwb.14 for ; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 03:30:42 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.153.147 with SMTP id f19mr1644162wek.40.1291807842401; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 03:30:42 -0800 (PST) Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.183.197 with HTTP; Wed, 8 Dec 2010 03:30:42 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 11:30:42 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] conditional and hypotetical sentences From: tijlan To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: paskios@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.45 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=paskios@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636284f36907f070496e47303 --001636284f36907f070496e47303 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 The three examples share the following logical connection: If A, then B. In Lojban, this connection is commonly translated with a "conditional if", such as: ganai A gi B Thus: ganai [I had wings] gi [I could fly] ganai [you study] gi [you will learn] ganai [you had gone to the store] gi [we wouldn't have to eat pizza tonight] This is the consistent part. The varying part is the extent to which the described events are hypothetical. The first example is presumably the most hypothetical: not only the consequence ("I fly") but also the condition ("I have wings") itself are a supposition of a fundamentally fictional event. In Lojban, usually "da'i" is used to mark "nonfactual". Since both elements of the connection belong to a fictional framework, I would put "da'i" outside the connection construct so as to modify its whole: da'i ganai nalci mi gi mi ka'e vofli The past tense in the English should not be translated literally, because it's a natlang way of expressing a nonfactual idea and the idea in question has little to do with the event being of the past. In the third example, "you had gone to the store" is a condition that's not fundamentally fictional ("you go to the store" is a factual possibility in that the entities "you" and "the store" are readily existent and the act of going is an intrinsic if not circumstantially allowed ability of "you") and limited to the past ("we don't have to eat pizza tonight" is contingent upon "you go to the store" happening in the past): ganai do pu klama lo zarci gi mi ca lo cabycte na bai citka lo djarpiza ("na" negates all the rightward stuffs in the sentence, and "ca lo cabycte" is to describe when "bai citka lo djarpiza" wouldn't happen i.e. the object of the negation, so I put "ca lo cabycte" before "na" to save it from the negation scope.) The second example is the most open as to when the condition is to take place: "you learn" is not contingent upon "you study" happening now or in the future. It's more axiomatic, less tense-specific (again in spite of the future tense in the English). Therefore: ganai do tadni gi do cilre On a stylistic note, I like to avoid repeating the same words, so I would paraphrase the above as follows: da'i mi ganai se nalci gi ka'e vofli do ganai tadni gi cilre -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --001636284f36907f070496e47303 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The three examples share the following logical connection:

If A, the= n B.

In Lojban, this connection is commonly translated with a "= conditional if", such as:

ganai A gi B

Thus:

gana= i [I had wings] gi [I could fly]

ganai [you study] gi [you will learn]

ganai [you had gone to the= store] gi [we wouldn't have to eat pizza tonight]

This is the c= onsistent part. The varying part is the extent to which the described event= s are hypothetical. The first example is presumably the most hypothetical: = not only the consequence ("I fly") but also the condition ("= I have wings") itself are a supposition of a fundamentally fictional e= vent. In Lojban, usually "da'i" is used to mark "nonfact= ual". Since both elements of the connection belong to a fictional fram= ework, I would put "da'i" outside the connection construct so= as to modify its whole:

da'i ganai nalci mi gi mi ka'e vofli

The past tense in t= he English should not be translated literally, because it's a natlang w= ay of expressing a nonfactual idea and the idea in question has little to d= o with the event being of the past.

In the third example, "you had gone to the store" is a condit= ion that's not fundamentally fictional ("you go to the store"= is a factual possibility in that the entities "you" and "th= e store" are readily existent and the act of going is an intrinsic if = not circumstantially allowed ability of "you") and limited to the= past ("we don't have to eat pizza tonight" is contingent upo= n "you go to the store" happening in the past):

ganai do pu klama lo zarci gi mi ca lo cabycte na bai citka lo djarpiza=

("na" negates all the rightward stuffs in the sentence, a= nd "ca lo cabycte" is to describe when "bai citka lo djarpiz= a" wouldn't happen i.e. the object of the negation, so I put "= ;ca lo cabycte" before "na" to save it from the negation sco= pe.)

The second example is the most open as to when the condition is to take= place: "you learn" is not contingent upon "you study" = happening now or in the future. It's more axiomatic, less tense-specifi= c (again in spite of the future tense in the English). Therefore:

ganai do tadni gi do cilre


On a stylistic note, I like to av= oid repeating the same words, so I would paraphrase the above as follows:
da'i mi ganai se nalci gi ka'e vofli

do ganai tadni gi= cilre

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