From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRD72v7nBBoEUbxy0w@googlegroups.com Wed Dec 08 08:08:53 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PQMZK-0004gY-Bu; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 08:08:53 -0800 Received: by gwj17 with SMTP id 17sf1154091gwj.16 for ; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 08:08:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=cHpHK5+U02Uqk58rRBwgr11KMp1bomm+aXzQS75xbWM=; b=X9ecp8hjwU8qyU3qJZr4JGBvG4JlXIer3JRvLyDsjZUE0/H0Rdl+GArSxWhjD+sw4/ DorOLIrmiPXI38n6N7dA0fmlIR95Yu6pN+QJ/JXKNgeXFjN7a1+K6oL24O0/JDiIBeWj 7UAHq6IfojDGJ0iABNKMM7bwneMph2pG34SnQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=K1c7JP6AHEwbZS5C2NaugrowtFcAiAIrFzTBhhQk0cCxiYwXdn/ZZ57QtLsJxmm/ye HXXTaJ39mB1ImtKzrVFr40TSNV8UFXZHXP2q+iBSnAoRpe6/yOaJYRP0qlqXkhwKYQzO GBUzvBnIOrxUXHeiLZQSdHc/t5T8LtbO22rpk= Received: by 10.91.44.1 with SMTP id w1mr549026agj.22.1291824507309; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 08:08:27 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.90.181.16 with SMTP id d16ls253069agf.3.p; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 08:08:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.90.118.12 with SMTP id q12mr2701681agc.22.1291824506476; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 08:08:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.90.118.12 with SMTP id q12mr2701679agc.22.1291824506426; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 08:08:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.120]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id i10si132223yhd.8.2010.12.08.08.08.25; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 08:08:25 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.120 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.120; Received: (qmail 99783 invoked by uid 60001); 8 Dec 2010 16:08:25 -0000 Message-ID: <909574.99458.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: pcrjWxMVM1nWLBOsTrHdpXXifhbByOML8a4UAIUcvrBiXix qVcjfi2USfh0Opl_EC6ZF3KlK4CTQTdfEyS.zAL83oHuMoxWkNA2epU0eZaA LRMSY8Xy6JOZC1Jx.aIOPCSn0_ylUryeQdkq9QkgypfNAT0YfgKpEWQNF6E3 saeKWnkPrgz3RbdM.9.AzhlSC4u__eLY0HJhhI6rv4WgjZZB2JIBwoacdCJn vO2Ri0O9.djPWEs6krlHhXciYoY_kPpO8T6DPpatY4IDzsvQSY4hoomCUqj. _mr_CHLrCetrtv9YS3u4AXBia1_ns4B.b0ui5QiCME5gPji6.8Uc5q38l7GV ZzaK8mwFkADSaZzigGpD93ge27uOWNgVsCBhd7q4nmPe6npiI1RRLONoJ Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 08:08:24 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/553 YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.285259 References: Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 08:08:24 -0800 (PST) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] conditional and hypotetical sentences To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.120 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One of the downsides of being a logical language is that Logjam took over t= he=20 connectives of logic quite uncritically and then tried to correct as it wen= t=20 along. So, 'ganai,,,, gi...' means just what it says: "either not ,,, or ,= ,,' =20 and even that is doubtful, since it does not require any relationship betwe= en=20 the parts: "either ducks fly or the square root of two is rational" is perf= ectly=20 sensible (and true) in logic land. The various moves that have been tried = to=20 correct this and get away from truth functional "if" (all such conditional = with=20 a false antecedent are true, limiting its usefulness for counterfactuals), = have=20 a variety of objections. The one presently most common (though none of the= se=20 get used much, since this is tricky ground) is not a connective but a=20 preposition. It does the right thing, but in a very limited way (or else i= n a=20 vague way; its scope appears to be a sentence but might extend indefinitely= =20 beyond). From logic (but without the useless connectives), the ideal would= seem=20 to be drawn from subordinate proofs, where one goes off from the main line = of a=20 proof to get some result that can then be brought back into the main line o= f=20 argument (reductio ad absurdum is the most familiar case). Marking the=20 beginning and end of such an alternative reality would allow the move to th= e=20 world with the new defining condition to extend beyond a single sentence, a= s it=20 often does in fact, but be clear about when one returns to the previous=20 reality. This is too much for the ordinary casual "if" which just wants a= =20 connective (and a recognition that usually a lot more is going one than jus= t=20 making a statement). ----- Original Message ---- From: Craig Daniel To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Wed, December 8, 2010 9:34:43 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] conditional and hypotetical sentences 2010/12/8 Jorge Llamb=EDas : > On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 6:40 AM, Remo Dentato wrote: >> After having read CLL 14 many times, I'm still very confused on Lojban >> connectives. >> >> Specifically I don't get how I can consistenly translate hypotetical >> and conditional sentences. > > The first thing you need to do is forget about associating "if" with > connectives. In English, "if" is a subordinating conjunction, not a > coordinating conjunction, so you should not expect it to be translated > with a connective anyway. (There is a marginal use of "if" that can be > sort of reproduced with a connective, but that's a marginal use of > "if", not its main use, and you should not start with that.) Right, the logical if and the idiomatic if are not the same. ganai... gi... is very much the former, and is not a useful way to talk about hypotheticals - or most other conditionals. >> For example: >> "If I had wings, I could fly" > > va'o lo nu da'i mi se nalci kei mi kakne lo nu vofli Some people favor "bai" over "va'o", but always with the understanding that "bai" implies the having of wings to directly cause the flying ability. AFAICT, the CLL doesn't have an answer here and both of those are words originally intended for other uses that got repurposed because there was a gaping hole that they seem to fit quite nicely. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.