From lojban+bncCN673cmqFBDVn5fpBBoEpvG5mA@googlegroups.com Thu Jan 06 06:21:27 2011 Received: from mail-yi0-f61.google.com ([209.85.218.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PaqiO-0005NZ-Fa; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 06:21:27 -0800 Received: by yia27 with SMTP id 27sf10166893yia.16 for ; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 06:21:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:x-vr-score :x-authority-analysis:x-cm-score:message-id:date:from:user-agent :x-accept-language:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=ulkSbRitsjBWaK7aiXqPP/Y6MI1acSS+BnEjZF6AvBI=; b=DqOA/ZqgYhm71N5IBgaVXXKaMqtoGFx5jd7ked4cwuVByAscAIvFsa4F3/WmJNuRmm A2HSu2HUF+fwmV+BddTANifpMEzt6vDichfGb4HMebbOk3J0Vd6X6/b3rePKoffTy13u QZoAPuTEIXf558bVoI3mVChQHEV2VAmEH3D+w= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-vr-score:x-authority-analysis:x-cm-score :message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=s+nHWeAJt3aoxXRQ+Xm9n+cx4LTljUVhA4TI9wcbOG5UvfhdUGV704Cs6qZfaaGoXR boiW7AY1T8jBILjXCPzRywTPEKP8MFwow/vwd6z5vDs0tXcD6W/0oSkcRPHyqYOx9JY7 Vw9YNKwQfBp5WS+r/Pxb8OxjLVA5J/G6ojiJk= Received: by 10.151.128.10 with SMTP id f10mr1363670ybn.61.1294323669541; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 06:21:09 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.150.201.10 with SMTP id y10ls9345940ybf.6.p; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 06:21:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.236.95.144 with SMTP id p16mr2333379yhf.10.1294323668963; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 06:21:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.236.95.144 with SMTP id p16mr2333378yhf.10.1294323668941; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 06:21:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from eastrmmtao103.cox.net (eastrmmtao103.cox.net [68.230.240.9]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id a52si830403yhd.1.2011.01.06.06.21.08; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 06:21:08 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 68.230.240.9 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of lojbab@lojban.org) client-ip=68.230.240.9; Received: from eastrmimpo01.cox.net ([68.1.16.119]) by eastrmmtao103.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.01.03.00 201-2260-125-20100507) with ESMTP id <20110106142109.BJDG18557.eastrmmtao103.cox.net@eastrmimpo01.cox.net> for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2011 09:21:09 -0500 Received: from [192.168.0.101] ([70.179.118.163]) by eastrmimpo01.cox.net with bizsmtp id sEM21f00G3Xcbvq02EM2eW; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 09:21:08 -0500 X-VR-Score: -100.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=HgUly8HDsR06nEagEYAssQ/i3RNK/rLTWOoGkba4Zlk= c=1 sm=1 a=hQ6Vh0px9vgA:10 a=8nJEP1OIZ-IA:10 a=7ls7RdmwX4RvLZNVULbZcg==:17 a=MionLujTBO1Ik0X1aq4A:9 a=sSn6hgynfBoWwXPi21wA:7 a=mn_glf6SAx0UvOL4qedHaf1r5iwA:4 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=7ls7RdmwX4RvLZNVULbZcg==:117 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: <4D25CFD8.6010408@lojban.org> Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2011 09:21:12 -0500 From: Robert LeChevalier User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Lojban is *NOT* broken! Stop saying that! (was Re: [lojban] Re: Vote for the Future Global Language) References: <9114501.161.1294150198377.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqhy19> <7c0687a1-deba-495a-9760-95d1d0649423@t8g2000prh.googlegroups.com> <20110105165231.GK17534@digitalkingdom.org> In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: lojbab@lojban.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 68.230.240.9 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of lojbab@lojban.org) smtp.mail=lojbab@lojban.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Ivo Doko wrote: > - I constantly read people both newbies and oldies ranting on about how > there's so much work yet to be done on lojban This is a relative thing. Much of the "work yet to be done" consists of completing the originally promised set of language documentation (something I promised back in 1989 or so, but was unable to deliver myself). The job is too big for one or two people. It is NOT too big for the current community, but will still take a lot of time because we don't have any paid, full-time, workers (whereas most published dictionaries are made by a small army of workers using specially designed software). If we has 100 full time workers skilled in the language, and knew how to use them effectively, the "so much work" would disappear rather quickly. We don't, so it takes longer, and it seems that progress is extremely slow. And yet, how long does it take OED to put out a new edition, even with and army of workers: decades. We should be able to do better, because Lojban is not English, and we don't need an OED-equivalent to have a useful language. > and how every now and then > someone will take upon him-/herself to finish whatever is left > unfinished and it will look like he/she will accomplish it but then > he/she gives up and yadda yadda. To me that seems like lojban is, to put > it as simple as possible, not finished. No. It means that it maintains higher standards than its current all-volunteer work crew has been able to manage. The documentation lags the reality. > Esperanto, on the other hand, is. No it isn't. No language is "finished" until it is a dead language. > Were you trying to say that Esperanto isn't finished either? It may > not be as "fully defined" as lojban is, but that doesn't really say > much. Actually, it says a lot. > Esperanto never aimed to be what lojban aims to be - a completely > logical and fully unambiguously defined language. Lojban never aimed to be that either. It is a false ideal, indeed a straw man. > Instead, Esperanto > aimed to be a language which is as unambiguous and as regular as it can > be while still operating like a naturally-evolved language as much as > possible. It never achieved that either. > In order for a language to be like that, it doesn't have to be > as fully defined as lojban does in order to be finished, Since no language can be finished, the argument is a waste. The question is whether the language is well-enough defined that a novice can come in, pick up the language materials and study them, and come out speaking passable Lojban within a reasonable amount of time. This has been demonstrated, but so far only with bright and highly motivated people. Some who are less motivated, demand a more formal set of documentation in order to be so-motivated, and they would demand that of Esperanto as well. Esperanto doesn't have that either. It does have dictionaries, but its primary advantage is its larger community and larger body of already written materials. It also requires a relatively low skill level of beginners for them to think of themselves as "Esperantists". We're not there yet, but we aren't far (though not far is still "a lot of work" for part time volunteers), and we aren't trying to emulate Esperanto's path in any event. >which is the reason why Esperanto is a finished language Esperanto is not a finished language. Nor is English. > while lojban is not. Even > though lojban is better defined than Esperanto, it's not as fully > defined as it should be in order for it to be finished, because the > current level of its well-definiteness is not good enough for what > lojban aims to be. "should be" is arbitrary, as are the "aims". So your argument merely creates a straw man that isn't really the target, so it cannot possibly be "finished". lojbab -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.