From lojban+bncCN673cmqFBCMq5fpBBoEfOc7iA@googlegroups.com Thu Jan 06 06:45:47 2011 Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Par5y-0005PE-4z; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 06:45:47 -0800 Received: by yxn35 with SMTP id 35sf15467770yxn.16 for ; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 06:45:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:x-vr-score :x-authority-analysis:x-cm-score:message-id:date:from:user-agent :x-accept-language:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=QtjkhK18NN8ao/BeK86xbH+nlOngjmLwPAd7eYRl8SU=; b=6PCN33P5A/RHpYZ25QajoFTeahkXk5XGVG/vQ+0jT1PWRlx9dKtgSc6IYa4zRLo25Y A3nkfS9riob2UUnaw/PrxnA1JtQaowUa3qXQr/nCAkGd+Q4W1zc/mFm/BP4p4Y3ebEf7 3ghstEOCfnbsmSWhr041x5X69/LOWJlFyl8F4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-vr-score:x-authority-analysis:x-cm-score :message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=fPDlisWPMWAc5FMwawC6Dkh8k60ZtITRSk+T6GizbjCGdnb+kSH1aQVNflxoCCoqTh 3QfngMWr960XFLlMUj0vDAyT7c+MS4ybY7GGTyaUz6XLQpDZ7oiPBKG4chXfxhHAXN+P L6TKxofZbLbScmRe48W2cmVybS1o4J6aF8A1U= Received: by 10.100.110.5 with SMTP id i5mr223318anc.74.1294325132053; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 06:45:32 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.100.75.33 with SMTP id x33ls1519025ana.4.p; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 06:45:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.48.12 with SMTP id v12mr1103539anv.49.1294325131516; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 06:45:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.48.12 with SMTP id v12mr1103538anv.49.1294325131499; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 06:45:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from eastrmmtao101.cox.net (eastrmmtao101.cox.net [68.230.240.7]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id c18si10186224anc.6.2011.01.06.06.45.31; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 06:45:31 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 68.230.240.7 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of lojbab@lojban.org) client-ip=68.230.240.7; Received: from eastrmimpo03.cox.net ([68.1.16.126]) by eastrmmtao101.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.01.03.00 201-2260-125-20100507) with ESMTP id <20110106144532.CNCJ8831.eastrmmtao101.cox.net@eastrmimpo03.cox.net> for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2011 09:45:32 -0500 Received: from [192.168.0.101] ([70.179.118.163]) by eastrmimpo03.cox.net with bizsmtp id sElW1f00R3Xcbvq02ElWBo; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 09:45:30 -0500 X-VR-Score: -100.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=fgpVv7GiIPOl9GxXVV86UvJlXqrAIcCR+h9WJChZt/Y= c=1 sm=1 a=HKsfh_tWDR4A:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=7ls7RdmwX4RvLZNVULbZcg==:17 a=CXTOaBwv6LpECWx3QwsA:9 a=7grmi4v6clIdklKQVjoA:7 a=TWfaHwL9zoWJtd0Th-x3y7F5C1kA:4 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=7ls7RdmwX4RvLZNVULbZcg==:117 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: <4D25D593.9060205@lojban.org> Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2011 09:45:39 -0500 From: Robert LeChevalier User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Lojban is *NOT* broken! Stop saying that! References: <9114501.161.1294150198377.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqhy19> <20110105165231.GK17534@digitalkingdom.org> <201101051658.16043.phma@phma.optus.nu> In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: lojbab@lojban.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 68.230.240.7 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of lojbab@lojban.org) smtp.mail=lojbab@lojban.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ivo Doko wrote: > I'm not talking about how lojban native speakers will come up with new=20 > words for things they don't have a word for. What I'm talking about is=20 > that speaker(s) of lojban will be introduced to a new=20 > invention/concept/thing which will have been named by people who don't=20 > speak lojban (but, for example, English) and lojban speakers will like=20 > the name those people have given it and will thus simply incorporate=20 > that word in their vocabularies and, thus, in lojban. It's just like=20 > French "=C3=A9cran" and English "software" got incorporated into=20 > Serbo-Croatian as "ekran" and "softver". They would not be incorporated into lojban that way. And the forms in=20 which they were incorporated would be valid Lojban words, and would=20 remain valid Lojban words even if better words were made to replace them. > Sure, purists didn't like that > and invented replacement words, namely "zaslon" and "omek=C5=A1je",=20 > respectively, but those words are simply not used and have failed to=20 > replace "ekran" and "softver" and these two have become a part of=20 > Serbo-Croatian vocabulary. If they are valid S-C words, that is no problem. There wold not be=20 valid Lojban words, and probably would therefore NOT become part of the=20 vocabulary. >Same thing would happen with lojban There is no evidence of this. - purists > would invent lujvo (or brivla) to replace the direct loanwords in order= =20 > to leave the language's unambiguity intact, Loanwords, in proper morphological form, leave the morphological=20 unambiguity intact, and it is not difficult to create such words. >but people who don't care > about whether the language is completely unambiguous or not Probably won't learn the language in the first place. >(who would, > mind you, make up a great majority of lojban speakers if it did become=20 > world's official common language) No language will "become world's official common language". That is=20 political impossibility. Any international language will only be used=20 by people who are motivated to use the language, and generally those who=20 are so motivated, want to use the language correctly. > would not cease to use the loanwords > in place of the new "proper" words and lojban would get screwed up=20 > pretty quick. Lojban is not screwed up by well-formed loan words. It may be=20 aesthetically less pleasing, but it loses no functionality. > Of course, you could say that lojban is what a special committee of=20 > purists says it is and that people who don't use only the words which=20 > have been approved by the committee don't speak lojban, but no one would= =20 > agree to make such a fascistic language the world's official common=20 > language NO one will agree to make any language "the world's official common language", but if they did, there undoubtedly would indeed be some sort=20 of standards committee that would "fascistically" define the=20 international language, and denigrate anything else. That is the way=20 international standardization works. > and even if they did no one would give a crap what the > committee says and lojban would still be what is spoken and not what is= =20 > approved. In which case, the question of "completeness" is irrelevant. If people=20 are happy speaking the language or some approximation thereof, then the=20 "fascistic" standards of completeness and unambiguity will be=20 unimportant to them, just as the rules of every other language are. But in fact, the evidence of the existing speaker base is that people DO=20 "give a crap" what the committee says in the case of Lojban, enough so,=20 that "xorlo" was "forceably" approved by the committee well ahead of the=20 standard procedure because the community wanted it to be officially=20 endorsed. lojbab --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.