From lojban+bncCN673cmqFBCNspfpBBoEZbb8zA@googlegroups.com Thu Jan 06 07:00:43 2011 Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1ParKS-0005h0-0N; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 07:00:43 -0800 Received: by yxn35 with SMTP id 35sf15474120yxn.16 for ; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 07:00:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:x-vr-score :x-authority-analysis:x-cm-score:message-id:date:from:user-agent :x-accept-language:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ECKp7TXElqQa6R+yvQXM3FhSrMyEmxTeXz1a4OrwUgo=; b=BYqVhf9kVILi/XQTePHn6m8UWKb0XEkfc3cU5pxaR3uxDXjh1mQwx+OUA32niTG27W QMfSFWcs68vmk6dcEcbpexsaPFxZGuaSAOoEcXozuJzhhLzp+wumUYa5wUJSNJwytfvV DpOIUEc28sHoa1IFLUQfxy7qFyMkCh/ADMHWs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-vr-score:x-authority-analysis:x-cm-score :message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ZclB0bjVB7/GRxIGtqoLfsOPjcbXiAU8VvnMWRZgV/Uax1lRHqDY9FsGhc0bZjXRMK /9ZTfFGTQprok8eZVcBOAmuvnS2yVWm6g+Fi5+hhyl9oZqFRxTysJ4mh1jUcdY+OE6hD cvPAevqHPNLmufhflzF8HI2Vz/W8ndicWcwIk= Received: by 10.100.212.8 with SMTP id k8mr16754ang.66.1294326029671; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 07:00:29 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.100.156.5 with SMTP id d5ls3355349ane.1.p; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 07:00:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.231.10 with SMTP id d10mr4227832anh.18.1294326028901; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 07:00:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.231.10 with SMTP id d10mr4227831anh.18.1294326028881; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 07:00:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from eastrmmtao105.cox.net (eastrmmtao105.cox.net [68.230.240.47]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id c4si10193243ana.1.2011.01.06.07.00.28; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 07:00:28 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 68.230.240.47 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of lojbab@lojban.org) client-ip=68.230.240.47; Received: from eastrmimpo03.cox.net ([68.1.16.126]) by eastrmmtao105.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.01.03.00 201-2260-125-20100507) with ESMTP id <20110106150027.YUSH9900.eastrmmtao105.cox.net@eastrmimpo03.cox.net> for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2011 10:00:27 -0500 Received: from [192.168.0.101] ([70.179.118.163]) by eastrmimpo03.cox.net with bizsmtp id sF0T1f00V3Xcbvq02F0U9N; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 10:00:28 -0500 X-VR-Score: -100.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=fgpVv7GiIPOl9GxXVV86UvJlXqrAIcCR+h9WJChZt/Y= c=1 sm=1 a=hQ6Vh0px9vgA:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=7ls7RdmwX4RvLZNVULbZcg==:17 a=nSNaKib1aoSJ3PzWHE8A:9 a=6_dsyrd3QiJ3TSPHF7TU3WDWzyUA:4 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=7ls7RdmwX4RvLZNVULbZcg==:117 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: <4D25D915.9080305@lojban.org> Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2011 10:00:37 -0500 From: Robert LeChevalier User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Lojban is *NOT* broken! Stop saying that! (was Re: [lojban] Re: Vote for the Future Global Language) References: <9114501.161.1294150198377.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqhy19> <7c0687a1-deba-495a-9760-95d1d0649423@t8g2000prh.googlegroups.com> <20110105165231.GK17534@digitalkingdom.org> <20110105220532.GN17534@digitalkingdom.org> In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: lojbab@lojban.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 68.230.240.47 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of lojbab@lojban.org) smtp.mail=lojbab@lojban.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ivo Doko wrote: > There's no "lojbanic" thinking about logic - there's logic and not=20 > logic. False. There are multiple schools of logic, which conflict at times on=20 very fundamental issues. Though that probably isn't relevant for this=20 example. > If the two sentences parse differently you've either > mistranslated them or lojban is not logical. Yeah, I'll presume the forme= r. The better conclusion is that the original sentence, being written in an=20 ambiguous language, wasn't logically unambiguous in the first place. > Wow, you guys need to learn your logic. Let's do it properly: >=20 > A =3D "lojban is fully defined." > B =3D "lojban is complete." > C =3D "lojban is a functioning language." >=20 > "lojban is not a fully defined, complete and functioning language" can be= written as: Not it can't. Your summary sentence is NOT =C2=AC(A =E2=88=A7 B =E2=88=A7 C) The closest English can come to that is "It is not the case that lojban is fully defined, and that lojban is=20 complete, and that lojban is a functioning language." and even that is=20 potentially ambiguous in several ways, because the words themselves are=20 ambiguous given differing contexts. (for example, "Lojban is complete"=20 and "Lojban is a complete language" are not necessarily identical in=20 meaning.) Your summary sentence uses "not" as a contrary rather than contradictory=20 negation, and combines the three independent logical terms into a single=20 complex modifier of the word "language". It thus is NOT the same as the=20 three separate sentences, logically ANDes and the whole negated. Lojban makes the differences extremely clear. English obviously does not. lojbab --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.