From lojban+bncCNuStaWoDxD88ZfpBBoEg6IV4g@googlegroups.com Thu Jan 06 09:17:03 2011 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PatSN-0005nL-I6; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 09:17:03 -0800 Received: by wwb34 with SMTP id 34sf18224700wwb.16 for ; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 09:16:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:message-id:date :from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=eo9wTSxTAWvX7lYe+H+L3nHxINrmd4royCNA1Hu3M4A=; b=XoiozDL8VS3hQtX7/3zJrvyaPJPCnA+VfWnUUvHiH2q56SlKT+Yar/N3gpdNa3+zKs 7a1VugO6bJKuxqrixbNoSm5lPB+lX3uOYWxC62RN5n1ASqJV9G6XbMjYOZHl1ZSvKEqA V2grCDK1GrTa87SlTH1SFgEJsixa3CJb87Vlk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:date:from:user-agent :mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=N5QmP/hWnHtqQC48LgyRCak8kindgC6uh73stba05IFXG6sTCbgmNk3Ttxb1ouZMOX VWidUfNjff70nrL/F9Zfq8yLBu4FojCtzDJV03C7GNxOmg+MzXBOH/gZag89wlQ7j9i5 pRTxG5utUirY2Ztn/MvZj7tjOEzg9LBpm4vac= Received: by 10.216.73.74 with SMTP id u52mr170148wed.16.1294334204281; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 09:16:44 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.184.76 with SMTP id cj12ls4599000wbb.3.p; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 09:16:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.152.130 with SMTP id g2mr817300wbw.25.1294334203341; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 09:16:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.152.130 with SMTP id g2mr817299wbw.25.1294334203268; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 09:16:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ww0-f44.google.com (mail-ww0-f44.google.com [74.125.82.44]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id m15si3797924wbg.5.2011.01.06.09.16.42; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 09:16:42 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.44 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.44; Received: by mail-ww0-f44.google.com with SMTP id 36so16626089wwa.13 for ; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 09:16:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.181.73 with SMTP id bx9mr14513311wbb.223.1294333685674; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 09:08:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.65] (87-194-76-177.bethere.co.uk [87.194.76.177]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id m13sm16953480wbz.15.2011.01.06.09.08.03 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 06 Jan 2011 09:08:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4D25F6F2.7050205@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2011 17:08:02 +0000 From: And Rosta User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.12) Gecko/20101027 Thunderbird/3.1.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Lojban is *NOT* broken! Stop saying that! (was Re: [lojban] Re: Vote for the Future Global Language) References: <9114501.161.1294150198377.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqhy19> <7c0687a1-deba-495a-9760-95d1d0649423@t8g2000prh.googlegroups.com> <20110105165231.GK17534@digitalkingdom.org> <20110105220532.GN17534@digitalkingdom.org> <4D25D915.9080305@lojban.org> In-Reply-To: <4D25D915.9080305@lojban.org> X-Original-Sender: and.rosta@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.44 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=and.rosta@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robert LeChevalier, On 06/01/2011 15:00: > Ivo Doko wrote: >> Wow, you guys need to learn your logic. Let's do it properly: >> >> A =3D "lojban is fully defined." >> B =3D "lojban is complete." >> C =3D "lojban is a functioning language." >> >> "lojban is not a fully defined, complete and functioning language" can b= e written as: > > Not it can't. Your summary sentence is NOT > =C2=AC(A =E2=88=A7 B =E2=88=A7 C) > > The closest English can come to that is > "It is not the case that lojban is fully defined, and that lojban is comp= lete, and that lojban is a functioning language." and even that is potentia= lly ambiguous in several ways, because the words themselves are ambiguous g= iven differing contexts. (for example, "Lojban is complete" and "Lojban is = a complete language" are not necessarily identical in meaning.) > > Your summary sentence uses "not" as a contrary rather than contradictory = negation, and combines the three independent logical terms into a single co= mplex modifier of the word "language". It thus is NOT the same as the three= separate sentences, logically ANDes and the whole negated. > > Lojban makes the differences extremely clear. English obviously does not. In English, logical scope tends to be ambiguous, at least within the same c= lause. So English "not A, B and C" can mean "It is not the case that each o= f A,B,C is the case" or "For each x, where x is one of A,B,C, it is not the= case that x is the case". Unless it has been fixed by recent BPFK action, Lojban has *exactly the sam= e ambiguity* with regard to logical scope between elements that are not exp= licitly prenexed. (At least Lojban has the option of prenexing to eradicate= ambiguity, but it is an option almost never used and that if often used wo= uld be received with opprobrium as stylistically objectionable.) --And. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.