From lojban+bncCNuStaWoDxD8npjpBBoEhYKotA@googlegroups.com Thu Jan 06 10:53:07 2011 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PauxM-00066M-B7; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 10:53:07 -0800 Received: by wyb35 with SMTP id 35sf18329911wyb.16 for ; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 10:52:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:message-id:date :from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=2kq5Kr757ZRMdpYBNS06gLRGUqrryytI4RPWC84BkF8=; b=JGpwPcm0vEpvqWZfGa6CPFmTGTihlrlfzTjCq1f/cptWdjYaoOXZULEPexP+Dde4vt KcYGagffMcsgMZyBsNSIbUKQUA2zWZclD+mPL4XtWAPkpmH0togyn/TH5vJk5tVBFmAU SyScbrJHqLlGl5P9qVL1O1af64gTG7iuU0JQ4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:date:from:user-agent :mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=e9Cmb/Zo6LxRaJNNitriy96qpp3S2o61ex5+N1AmusEp7DBB5zDS9Qm6LmKciDQrEc dEBaKWoj371fJMz3IVbl6wUDibkuQ1oXXffdVFbex6oxAGSZwIOcFUh/jgK3HWHc/Zj8 9NGpMk9HU8y+1xuTQqpDCmh1lddNXOAbdEBbU= Received: by 10.216.68.146 with SMTP id l18mr2122583wed.23.1294339964507; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 10:52:44 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.102.89 with SMTP id f25ls1948302wbo.0.p; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 10:52:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.127.149 with SMTP id g21mr816813wbs.10.1294339963595; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 10:52:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.127.149 with SMTP id g21mr816812wbs.10.1294339963577; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 10:52:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ww0-f43.google.com (mail-ww0-f43.google.com [74.125.82.43]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id m79si755796wej.7.2011.01.06.10.52.42; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 10:52:42 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.43 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.43; Received: by mail-ww0-f43.google.com with SMTP id 17so17133656wwi.0 for ; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 10:52:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.195.79 with SMTP id eb15mr102034wbb.192.1294339942937; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 10:52:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.65] (87-194-76-177.bethere.co.uk [87.194.76.177]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id m13sm17017961wbz.9.2011.01.06.10.52.21 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 06 Jan 2011 10:52:21 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4D260F63.7090101@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2011 18:52:19 +0000 From: And Rosta User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.12) Gecko/20101027 Thunderbird/3.1.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Lojban is *NOT* broken! Stop saying that! (was Re: [lojban] Re: Vote for the Future Global Language) References: <20110105165231.GK17534@digitalkingdom.org> <20110105220532.GN17534@digitalkingdom.org> <4D25D915.9080305@lojban.org> <4D25F6F2.7050205@gmail.com> <20110106171943.GZ17534@digitalkingdom.org> In-Reply-To: <20110106171943.GZ17534@digitalkingdom.org> X-Original-Sender: and.rosta@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.43 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=and.rosta@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robin Lee Powell, On 06/01/2011 17:19: > On Thu, Jan 06, 2011 at 05:08:02PM +0000, And Rosta wrote: >> >> In English, logical scope tends to be ambiguous, at least within >> the same clause. So English "not A, B and C" can mean "It is not >> the case that each of A,B,C is the case" or "For each x, where x >> is one of A,B,C, it is not the case that x is the case". >> >> Unless it has been fixed by recent BPFK action, Lojban has >> *exactly the same ambiguity* with regard to logical scope between >> elements that are not explicitly prenexed. > > Show me an example please. "su'o broda ro brode cu brodi" "na ku a bu e by e cy cu broda" Ten years ago these were ambiguous. Xorxes proposed a rule that items in hi= gher clauses have scope over items in lower clauses (i.e. that items export= to the prenex of the localmost clause) and that when two items are in the = same clause, the leftward element has scope over the rightward. (It's a sha= me to have to 'pollute' the purely hierarchical structure of logical form w= ith left-to-right order of forms, but it's by far the simplest way to rescu= e Lojban in its (then) current state. Perhaps the BPFK has made xorxes's ru= le official, in which case I wonder what happened to the rule about the sco= pe of selbri tcita "na", and to the scope of selbri tcita in general.) --And. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.