From lojban+bncCK30vq5WEKSjmOkEGgTGmfHp@googlegroups.com Thu Jan 06 11:02:12 2011 Received: from mail-px0-f189.google.com ([209.85.212.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Pav67-0006Hu-9o; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 11:02:11 -0800 Received: by pxi19 with SMTP id 19sf6636715pxi.16 for ; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 11:02:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:date:from:to:subject:message-id :references:mime-version:in-reply-to:user-agent:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-disposition; bh=QmD5EvOYriO05vnK65uZsp78AgdoX9MXJVVK9vCZMxw=; b=QAczhKi6ZmL4XJ+ygPaaKzKUQJW4gC1BA0vWIzKewBhRMugSDDu6NrmhvGnqN/kPX8 yYvJQuiCBCEFxcIjzCxiZ29jLRYCl7ulmuw9HTkMPJxkT4AmsUkKOwnvr/C5jWYCc88r DPt/o7dN/4PZcPVRrkI3d1X+JaOIwVriBnyFg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:in-reply-to:user-agent:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-disposition; b=cMJqmA0wXjB9VYlajcpxQ0ybPJ392pfW+Y9OTCU7AnC59Gmr6evGcvCZvrwiMXU0Jb 3fnC3X/nWUsAfTeJMRPyDn3MwN2HEhIITL7qFM7S4QcBoQvkKlWNUb0ohQEsCCIfNTUn wYsEdQSinxxeS3g3QtmHOcDHErYy2u787cDAk= Received: by 10.142.210.15 with SMTP id i15mr81007wfg.33.1294340516530; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 11:01:56 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.142.121.31 with SMTP id t31ls25214104wfc.3.p; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 11:01:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.204.13 with SMTP id b13mr992009wfg.67.1294340514992; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 11:01:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.204.13 with SMTP id b13mr992008wfg.67.1294340514967; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 11:01:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org (digitalkingdom.org [173.13.139.234]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f13si1288348wfo.4.2011.01.06.11.01.54 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 06 Jan 2011 11:01:54 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org designates 173.13.139.234 as permitted sender) client-ip=173.13.139.234; Received: from rlpowell by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Pav5t-0006Hq-8w for lojban@googlegroups.com; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 11:01:53 -0800 Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2011 11:01:53 -0800 From: Robin Lee Powell To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Lojban is *NOT* broken! Stop saying that! (was Re: [lojban] Re: Vote for the Future Global Language) Message-ID: <20110106190153.GB23787@digitalkingdom.org> References: <20110105220532.GN17534@digitalkingdom.org> <4D25D915.9080305@lojban.org> <4D25F6F2.7050205@gmail.com> <20110106171943.GZ17534@digitalkingdom.org> <4D260F63.7090101@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4D260F63.7090101@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-Original-Sender: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org designates 173.13.139.234 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline On Thu, Jan 06, 2011 at 06:52:19PM +0000, And Rosta wrote: > Robin Lee Powell, On 06/01/2011 17:19: > >On Thu, Jan 06, 2011 at 05:08:02PM +0000, And Rosta wrote: > >> > >>In English, logical scope tends to be ambiguous, at least within > >>the same clause. So English "not A, B and C" can mean "It is not > >>the case that each of A,B,C is the case" or "For each x, where x > >>is one of A,B,C, it is not the case that x is the case". > >> > >>Unless it has been fixed by recent BPFK action, Lojban has > >>*exactly the same ambiguity* with regard to logical scope > >>between elements that are not explicitly prenexed. > > > >Show me an example please. > > "su'o broda ro brode cu brodi" > > "na ku a bu e by e cy cu broda" > > Ten years ago these were ambiguous. You're going to have to hold my hand more than that, I'm afraid. Ambiguous how? > Xorxes proposed a rule that items in higher clauses have scope > over items in lower clauses (i.e. that items export to the prenex > of the localmost clause) and that when two items are in the same > clause, the leftward element has scope over the rightward. (It's a > shame to have to 'pollute' the purely hierarchical structure of > logical form with left-to-right order of forms, but it's by far > the simplest way to rescue Lojban in its (then) current state. > Perhaps the BPFK has made xorxes's rule official, in which case I > wonder what happened to the rule about the scope of selbri tcita > "na", and to the scope of selbri tcita in general.) I didn't know that was xorxes' rule; I thought left-to-right quantifier scope was in the CLL. Yes, indeed: http://dag.github.com/cll/16/5/ "The rule for dropping the prenex is simple: if the variables appear in the same order within the bridi as they did in the prenex, then the prenex is superfluous.". So, I'm probably failing to understand. Can you please explain it like I'm very very stupid? -Robin -- http://singinst.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false" is "na nei". My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.