From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCIq5jpBBoErh1lUA@googlegroups.com Thu Jan 06 11:18:50 2011 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PavMC-0006yX-Gh; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 11:18:49 -0800 Received: by gwj17 with SMTP id 17sf15627707gwj.16 for ; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 11:18:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=LWrFC8lEzSi3pMKeEy8dCQhHUCSupY7EGR2FtZJJNtY=; b=qf74aOz/GmqrftVNx4uF/UpuEXa7d9xxiadmvt5AqbYU+aj7GiLBozUYXtCjBzwQg0 hHFftg/0Aq7sbBOWk8c2SJGd+5DwI4uejDzWYq1Ye71RT/mJEEI5deXP1T/Whd08fbKE 73a4vCgUpUfJTF1LEPXFLtLFIdAMAHaHs3528= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=4ncsFcvtzkxE7d3nyRzBT+Qe8KsDPs+lFZ4YNbjz5ahMNx49WmLnWqlG/k43Pf0ukG cySTU0nyoaHHA8nqcJOElK1spBCpXEdXiOf4U28QzAOoAs8DESgjVy8G0g+fVGDA+GWa Z1SPefUYt+PgaRgylEvAjJmwVF3KTBXQRcwLs= Received: by 10.151.116.20 with SMTP id t20mr479163ybm.11.1294341512885; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 11:18:32 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.105.19 with SMTP id h19ls97005anm.5.p; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 11:18:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.3.5 with SMTP id 5mr4212251anc.27.1294341511976; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 11:18:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.3.5 with SMTP id 5mr4212250anc.27.1294341511962; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 11:18:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.119]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id f5si10273157anh.2.2011.01.06.11.18.30; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 11:18:30 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.119 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.119; Received: (qmail 79902 invoked by uid 60001); 6 Jan 2011 19:18:30 -0000 Message-ID: <262341.77097.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: _vXBUncVM1m8._XMsVS_tFUB.Mlq82If9r2hVLJ6ag3YwQ0 UJluRF4vJ0LjW_.moMmfpPUvtO4pnCfXOO6BgX6JG5BntTo.s0hV3GsbJ98D YCmIZ1A5cKsHuY7MwsgOFSD0GO5G5mg9GbrNp95SVuKpFZd6NJ_qQWRvJGu6 UHt1huQokqHbsVA0tRns8jcPKJp4xAwdERM0TgJnIgqmI0D0Gne39P0YDarx zG6NoyX5hVklhQvSNHRlw4LFQTyPSwOcDkavYo.JUY9CnKXGg3RKO_RA_yu3 p_Y0iqTQiqwlz.8ZVmnRzT1QuzUgpj5dZBKdM8qk0xJ.s5rOAWtBlBgRrw0M YQ5zW4loBBSLb9klxq5GGOYWWUxtleTdfNDwVrUHNPX29ZfE2Jv67cgmbtqD .DLmcHnbD.poT Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 11:18:30 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/553 YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.285259 References: <20110105165231.GK17534@digitalkingdom.org> <20110105220532.GN17534@digitalkingdom.org> <4D25D915.9080305@lojban.org> <4D25F6F2.7050205@gmail.com> <20110106171943.GZ17534@digitalkingdom.org> <4D260F63.7090101@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2011 11:18:30 -0800 (PST) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: Lojban is *NOT* broken! Stop saying that! (was Re: [lojban] Re: Vote for the Future Global Language) To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: <4D260F63.7090101@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.119 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 ----- Original Message ---- From: And Rosta To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Thu, January 6, 2011 12:52:19 PM Subject: Re: Lojban is *NOT* broken! Stop saying that! (was Re: [lojban] Re: Vote for the Future Global Language) Robin Lee Powell, On 06/01/2011 17:19: > On Thu, Jan 06, 2011 at 05:08:02PM +0000, And Rosta wrote: >> >> In English, logical scope tends to be ambiguous, at least within >> the same clause. So English "not A, B and C" can mean "It is not >> the case that each of A,B,C is the case" or "For each x, where x >> is one of A,B,C, it is not the case that x is the case". >> >> Unless it has been fixed by recent BPFK action, Lojban has >> *exactly the same ambiguity* with regard to logical scope between >> elements that are not explicitly prenexed. > > Show me an example please. "su'o broda ro brode cu brodi" "na ku a bu e by e cy cu broda" Ten years ago these were ambiguous. Xorxes proposed a rule that items in higher clauses have scope over items in lower clauses (i.e. that items export to the prenex of the localmost clause) and that when two items are in the same clause, the leftward element has scope over the rightward. (It's a shame to have to 'pollute' the purely hierarchical structure of logical form with left-to-right order of forms, but it's by far the simplest way to rescue Lojban in its (then) current state. Perhaps the BPFK has made xorxes's rule official, in which case I wonder what happened to the rule about the scope of selbri tcita "na", and to the scope of selbri tcita in general.) ** Were these really ambiguous as recently as 10 years ago? There are problems about what the quantifiers mean exactly and there are always RHE problems, with scope mainly. But seems to be pretty clear from the LHE (prenex) perspective (issues about the second example were about the translation of an English case). --And. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.