From lojban+bncCIOnzJa3CxDozpjpBBoEfK8-cA@googlegroups.com Thu Jan 06 12:35:06 2011 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PawY0-0006lr-8X; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 12:35:06 -0800 Received: by wwb34 with SMTP id 34sf18331364wwb.16 for ; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 12:34:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:date:from:to :subject:message-id:references:mime-version:in-reply-to:user-agent :x-nvg-mailscanner-information:x-nvg-mailscanner:x-mailscanner-from :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-disposition:content-transfer-encoding; bh=1fgt5m1+H8DsANgv7OjZKLpKc8c39q64XspipUX26O8=; b=0vZg7a2C7QI7Hlk07EEWcgJ7NASxndLtQmwftqtyXCkICrLXSSp8qrq66wXwJATO/t H2u18BULZaPKI1ixkhNHaTIccPXWGC8plg8HUwwJ6asWrXUbau4eliINY3Lt5+hr+2bI gKrTALRaRxCZqxIClBo+DF0C3rhop/vlTvu2M= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:in-reply-to:user-agent:x-nvg-mailscanner-information :x-nvg-mailscanner:x-mailscanner-from:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-disposition :content-transfer-encoding; b=IMqcuX6k6VFgzDbFKB15ZMIDqQFmQgDSYZfzwhFzh+PPhfHw8eEGZFR1A0V4ULPaEs 1VVs2bqlwRYwWCy/UrkR13G7ftiTrlsCiPDz+sMEHk/1FPOCR36duHQ9pk4sCW93MNYV fUfZvtg+FS4om9pdaC8jkM67dzol90DaFk7r4= Received: by 10.216.169.132 with SMTP id n4mr3382493wel.1.1294346088465; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 12:34:48 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.14.10.153 with SMTP id 25ls1102019eev.3.p; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 12:34:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.14.47.6 with SMTP id s6mr92813eeb.15.1294346087565; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 12:34:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.14.47.6 with SMTP id s6mr92812eeb.15.1294346087544; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 12:34:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no (sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no [129.241.210.67]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 41si608582ees.5.2011.01.06.12.34.47 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 06 Jan 2011 12:34:47 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of arj@nvg.ntnu.no designates 129.241.210.67 as permitted sender) client-ip=129.241.210.67; Received: from sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no (sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no [IPv6:2001:700:300:2000:92e6:baff:fe68:dd1c]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2BD7947AA for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2011 21:34:41 +0100 (CET) Received: from sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no (arj@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5+lenny1) with ESMTP id p06KYf7T007084 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2011 21:34:41 +0100 Received: (from arj@localhost) by sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id p06KYfDp007083 for lojban@googlegroups.com; Thu, 6 Jan 2011 21:34:41 +0100 Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2011 21:34:41 +0100 From: Arnt Richard Johansen To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Lojban is *NOT* broken! Stop saying that! (was Re: [lojban] Re: Vote for the Future Global Language) Message-ID: <20110106203441.GD8367@nvg.org> References: <9114501.161.1294150198377.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqhy19> <7c0687a1-deba-495a-9760-95d1d0649423@t8g2000prh.googlegroups.com> <20110105165231.GK17534@digitalkingdom.org> <4D25F32F.8000209@gmail.com> <20110106171347.GY17534@digitalkingdom.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20110106171347.GY17534@digitalkingdom.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) X-NVG-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-NVG-MailScanner: Not scanned: please contact your Internet E-Mail Service Provider for details X-MailScanner-From: arj@nvg.ntnu.no X-Original-Sender: arj@nvg.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of arj@nvg.ntnu.no designates 129.241.210.67 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=arj@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jan 06, 2011 at 09:13:47AM -0800, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > On Thu, Jan 06, 2011 at 04:51:59PM +0000, And Rosta wrote: >=20 > > What a real grammar would do is define a set of correspondences > > between sentence forms and sentence meanings. >=20 > [...] I have no idea how you could formalize such a thing (and I'm not > terribly sure I care, to be honest). For what it's worth, ERG is an example of such a thing: http://www.delph-in.net/erg/ To summarize your objection from further downthread: =93Formal semantics is= just a system for transforming one string of meaningless symbols into anot= her string of meaningless symbols, so what's the point?=94 Well, to a certain extent you're right, but if you choose the right kind of= semantic representation, you can do things like proving that two different= strings of Lojban have the same meaning. Correct me if I'm wrong, but at t= he moment no machine grammar of Lojban represents the fact that =93mi viska= do=94 is equivalent to =93do se viska mi=94. I don't think that we absolutely need to have such a thing, and I am certai= nly not volunteering to make it, but if we did have such a thing, I'm sure = it would reveal one or two problems about Lojban grammar that no-one's thou= ght about before. --=20 Arnt Richard Johansen http://arj.nvg.org/ Information wants to be anthropomorphized! --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.