From lojban+bncCK30vq5WEIPUmOkEGgRDaY4R@googlegroups.com Thu Jan 06 12:46:13 2011 Received: from mail-pz0-f61.google.com ([209.85.210.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Pawil-00075Y-E3; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 12:46:12 -0800 Received: by pzk9 with SMTP id 9sf4499497pzk.16 for ; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 12:46:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:date:from:to:subject:message-id :references:mime-version:in-reply-to:user-agent:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-disposition; bh=OEp02FZP2ELDlHLsyy1G0QrqhZ+VT2HaEggh4ZJebew=; b=CWjFNbhCT1uhy+Hz3YFkHWS+d69s5jPHeQ3QizwOtG457KctjwUiR+1O4f+3K7fQxN bhe5P0Qr96BE6xss6CaCltVXovBNwS0LZ5P1fQX9Gne/S44Fmo3E612+ceV/2rHAQLbb rbFMrZZvDT1ePDsZ0Su9i0redSsw2206OBx8o= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:in-reply-to:user-agent:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-disposition; b=PTb3H4s3Y/WzQW/zZJ147NIKy9DMeA2/qN1/GEJbJtLlGHBkgr0LxrSR1IS9Mm9YRU 4bdIMpeZXlCpVGvr2X0r1QpjJW9AfjLnDcGy3jmNHMH/S/XMNSTTjVAdewkmYUJUA0RW a+hYK2tM2lcgJlr0Jx1qhAqGF0xCb99HxytyU= Received: by 10.143.178.1 with SMTP id f1mr86595wfp.64.1294346755896; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 12:45:55 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.142.97.18 with SMTP id u18ls1459318wfb.2.p; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 12:45:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.245.1 with SMTP id s1mr1070381wfh.46.1294346754423; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 12:45:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.245.1 with SMTP id s1mr1070379wfh.46.1294346754389; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 12:45:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org (digitalkingdom.org [173.13.139.234]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id w13si1369931wfh.7.2011.01.06.12.45.54 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 06 Jan 2011 12:45:54 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org designates 173.13.139.234 as permitted sender) client-ip=173.13.139.234; Received: from rlpowell by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PawiW-00074M-Pp for lojban@googlegroups.com; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 12:45:52 -0800 Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2011 12:45:52 -0800 From: Robin Lee Powell To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Lojban is *NOT* broken! Stop saying that! (was Re: [lojban] Re: Vote for the Future Global Language) Message-ID: <20110106204552.GH23787@digitalkingdom.org> References: <4D25D915.9080305@lojban.org> <4D25F6F2.7050205@gmail.com> <20110106171943.GZ17534@digitalkingdom.org> <4D260F63.7090101@gmail.com> <20110106190153.GB23787@digitalkingdom.org> <4D26227D.4080207@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4D26227D.4080207@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-Original-Sender: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org designates 173.13.139.234 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline On Thu, Jan 06, 2011 at 08:13:49PM +0000, And Rosta wrote: > Robin Lee Powell, On 06/01/2011 19:01: > >On Thu, Jan 06, 2011 at 06:52:19PM +0000, And Rosta wrote: > >>Robin Lee Powell, On 06/01/2011 17:19: > >>>On Thu, Jan 06, 2011 at 05:08:02PM +0000, And Rosta wrote: > >>>> > >>>>In English, logical scope tends to be ambiguous, at least > >>>>within the same clause. So English "not A, B and C" can mean > >>>>"It is not the case that each of A,B,C is the case" or "For > >>>>each x, where x is one of A,B,C, it is not the case that x is > >>>>the case". > >>>> > >>>>Unless it has been fixed by recent BPFK action, Lojban has > >>>>*exactly the same ambiguity* with regard to logical scope > >>>>between elements that are not explicitly prenexed. > >>> > >>>Show me an example please. > >> > >>"su'o broda ro brode cu brodi" > >> > >>"na ku a bu e by e cy cu broda" > >> > >>Ten years ago these were ambiguous. > > > >You're going to have to hold my hand more than that, I'm afraid. > >Ambiguous how? > > In the case of the second one, ambiguous between the two meanings > the English version has: "It is not the case that A, B and C > broda" versus "For each of A,B,C it is not the case that it > brodas". I'm not going to comment on what I think it means because I have problems with na ku and quantification :) and I'm pretty busy right now, but if you could review the relevant CLL sections and double-check whether there's remaining ambiguity, and if so show me where, I'd *really* appreciate it. -Robin -- http://singinst.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false" is "na nei". My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.