From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRDk15jpBBoEPI93bQ@googlegroups.com Thu Jan 06 12:54:13 2011 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PawqV-0007Gf-9c; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 12:54:13 -0800 Received: by gyb11 with SMTP id 11sf15182802gyb.16 for ; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 12:54:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=MTuPy8k77BPqClD3KVZ/JZ2fbU8yjywObwzPv3Yy6tM=; b=BP9mG28an2EgWdmxSFhXmh8UHNLV60uHAbtZ9YFYwSAnqKcEwRZVnPDUVMq3v5VMY5 zRecD21TWZBsaNHrTreF7DXuMzo1d2orkXas8ntDLWV7mNzzpPStw4eYexe+XnrfoPBn Wbaew1yajdpg9BwjFC92r1A/2/JuJmPD16/lM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ukH+HaT4yOjB+fh9r0iJiiAek2bnT+SuaHjLPnkBLCSzibawnTSs22t3lo795EnSbn RrDBWjnWr/kDDPhz5xNf4IJ25DN1iEdUHgrPa6F6ciifI9RJkpGSz6BVjXeLhsQaB6Gm v/9J7LEi6YwfHqiZXaljGSiT/AHJTou4+Kkfw= Received: by 10.151.19.3 with SMTP id w3mr1783891ybi.25.1294347236924; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 12:53:56 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.105.19 with SMTP id h19ls111190anm.5.p; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 12:53:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.101.1.15 with SMTP id d15mr4362819ani.13.1294347236365; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 12:53:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.101.1.15 with SMTP id d15mr4362818ani.13.1294347236341; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 12:53:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.121]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id e31si10304227ana.11.2011.01.06.12.53.55; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 12:53:55 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.121 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.121; Received: (qmail 3731 invoked by uid 60001); 6 Jan 2011 20:53:54 -0000 Message-ID: <798475.99436.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: 0uWYq98VM1kXv.N2L8lGFCAMihq3hoTHkQxDjat.UD7fK5N howGM0h3peLytPh3S7XOfCC5T0ps.vkc1wUsAhK4ijO..qyULeCYs1zEbt6h uCt4lIEUQhmlD9rjTTychlRpzIRmlpPvBl7sJHyy5MG.sLQduhFr_SxjOVdE R_2PxgzwX6hohKoQVJ3HHVe8g4BancaBA78LhlZq3ZA_jOCAlgBJ5p5URrgw 2bUxOSabU_vJiNnSJIDrD1pGJrFodkJALBJX7fVsmPsX53ic.Luk5qzmLHpC H47Qjk.dhf8ewcuYW1bqC1bAS2IcO78br51t3MK9mn5t9RolG8IeK5kFoVAe S5fXPQbiCYCvr9ADMXxWNbIKOrCS3RVivSgiCYqYEcIGzXooT_es9F5S9XlN Jexv5JYiCCDfjMw-- Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 12:53:54 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/553 YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.285259 References: <9114501.161.1294150198377.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqhy19> <7c0687a1-deba-495a-9760-95d1d0649423@t8g2000prh.googlegroups.com> <20110105165231.GK17534@digitalkingdom.org> <20110105220532.GN17534@digitalkingdom.org> <4D25D915.9080305@lojban.org> <4D25F6F2.7050205@gmail.com> <4D2628A0.8060505@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2011 12:53:54 -0800 (PST) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: Lojban is *NOT* broken! Stop saying that! (was Re: [lojban] Re: Vote for the Future Global Language) To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: <4D2628A0.8060505@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.121 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message ---- From: And Rosta To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Thu, January 6, 2011 2:40:00 PM Subject: Re: Lojban is *NOT* broken! Stop saying that! (was Re: [lojban] Re= :=20 Vote for the Future Global Language) Ian Johnson, On 06/01/2011 19:35: > ...What? You're trying to distinguish between: > ~(A(x) ^ B(x) ^ C(x)) > and > ~A(x) ^ ~B(x) ^ ~C(x) > > Lojban has plenty of ways to do this. No, the point is firstly that the difference is merely one of scope, and=20 secondly that Lojban too has (or perhaps merely had) the ambiguity that Loj= bab=20 was reproaching English for having. The point was not that Lojban (or Engli= sh)=20 has no way of disambiguating. **But there is no (significant, perhaps) scope ambiguity in the Lojban and = never=20 has been, so far as I can recall (after some early mucking about with prene= x=20 forms). The *English* is screwed up in the way you suggest, --And. Here's one: > > naku ko'a broda gi'e brode gi'e brodi > vs. > ko'a na broda gi'enai brode gi'enai brodi > > These are completely different sentences. On the other hand, if you actua= lly go=20 >through and try to say the same thing in English, you actually wind up wit= h=20 >virtually identical sentences: > > It is not the case that ko'a X and Y and Z > vs. > ko'a doesn't X and doesn't Y and doesn't Z. > > "It is not the case that" is stylistically horrible, however, which is wh= y=20 >classes on logic taught in English spend probably an entire week on the co= ncept=20 >of a "useful negation" and thus introducing the De Morgan laws, what happe= ns to=20 >quantifiers when a statement is negated, etc. > > So the issue is really not with English, it's with idiomatic English. You= can=20 >more or less remove ambiguity in "rigid" contexts like these, but when you= try=20 >to also add in flavor and life to your English (such as in "X is far from = being=20 >A, B, and C", which incidentally I read as ~(A(x) ^ B(x) ^ C(x)), as a=20 >counterexample to someone who was saying any native English speaker would = read=20 >it the other way), it becomes extremely hard to preserve the lack of ambig= uity.=20 >Lojban makes this a hell of a lot easier; UI alone is a tremendous help. > > Also, for what it's worth, I've used prenexes quite a bit, and don't cons= ider=20 >them especially hard to read. Hell, one of {me'ei}'s dominant uses is {ro = me'ei=20 >bu'a zo'u}. > > mu'o mi'e .latros. > > On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 11:08 AM, And Rosta > wrote: > > Robert LeChevalier, On 06/01/2011 15:00: > > Ivo Doko wrote: > > Wow, you guys need to learn your logic. Let's do it properly: > > A =3D "lojban is fully defined." > B =3D "lojban is complete." > C =3D "lojban is a functioning language." > > "lojban is not a fully defined, complete and functioning lang= uage"=20 >can be written as: > > > Not it can't. Your summary sentence is NOT > =C2=AC(A =E2=88=A7 B =E2=88=A7 C) > > The closest English can come to that is > "It is not the case that lojban is fully defined, and that lojban= is=20 >complete, and that lojban is a functioning language." and even that is=20 >potentially ambiguous in several ways, because the words themselves are=20 >ambiguous given differing contexts. (for example, "Lojban is complete" and= =20 >"Lojban is a complete language" are not necessarily identical in meaning.) > > Your summary sentence uses "not" as a contrary rather than=20 >contradictory negation, and combines the three independent logical terms i= nto a=20 >single complex modifier of the word "language". It thus is NOT the same as= the=20 >three separate sentences, logically ANDes and the whole negated. > > Lojban makes the differences extremely clear. English obviously d= oes=20 >not. > > > In English, logical scope tends to be ambiguous, at least within the = same=20 >clause. So English "not A, B and C" can mean "It is not the case that each= of=20 >A,B,C is the case" or "For each x, where x is one of A,B,C, it is not the = case=20 >that x is the case". > > Unless it has been fixed by recent BPFK action, Lojban has *exactly t= he=20 >same ambiguity* with regard to logical scope between elements that are not= =20 >explicitly prenexed. (At least Lojban has the option of prenexing to eradi= cate=20 >ambiguity, but it is an option almost never used and that if often used wo= uld be=20 >received with opprobrium as stylistically objectionable.) > > --And. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gr= oups=20 >"lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com=20 >. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 >lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com=20 >. > For more options, visit this group at=20 >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 >"lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 >lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at=20 >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.