From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRDX95jpBBoEz21DWw@googlegroups.com Thu Jan 06 14:02:14 2011 Received: from mail-yw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PaxuL-00081c-Cd; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 14:02:14 -0800 Received: by ywh1 with SMTP id 1sf15711384ywh.16 for ; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 14:02:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=GwfCcwWuEy9nFuqwhRBZOeEko8wck98PFuqpLgE+1D0=; b=fO3jdv+4pdEDHtX3tyINmtdboEkjr73dWwnASErsBNAXRw4Oqvo0xZ/RigKZAenOUC giBX7WBa5KsP/tMhPBoefFAKkU71259TYKWjeJdX/5DcxMTCWbBd6FpQnSlLbkxeJ/7H 5XiglxToV7CpsVpUNDYeies35FctIQuPZaBU8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=QmP9pEZMqHI5stjkjhsezO0BgzSZf3sq2pDQd6HDhzJuPo65xnBtxAL1++rUSxUtWB liSerOJop02cmymD72s0M64D1+2IhcE15pRxMszqjXvGiNi5xiwlR0DBoG6xtUsnoGd0 qIZxzos5lDJiehCkD49Uh4Rb/CjUiy6ZeC0m8= Received: by 10.151.19.3 with SMTP id w3mr1793214ybi.25.1294351319698; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 14:01:59 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.105.19 with SMTP id h19ls120579anm.5.p; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 14:01:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.109.20 with SMTP id h20mr3789969anc.58.1294351319169; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 14:01:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.109.20 with SMTP id h20mr3789968anc.58.1294351319148; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 14:01:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.122]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id c18si10329635anc.6.2011.01.06.14.01.57; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 14:01:58 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.122 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.122; Received: (qmail 70346 invoked by uid 60001); 6 Jan 2011 22:01:57 -0000 Message-ID: <200257.69484.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: uegBgjoVM1mO7WWlfREkzrKOaoYNss3aiSf7LBds_Wcis3v mm5qE3Be0fp1RkZVYmLGN1675DgTl0UykWrt58JuWbVFNvOnNFtQ6ZLFz389 VhYbK19ajAjKE_l9eQcWKoJ91.gN3ZjDpbv4BKQLm3kp4P4gAaqC.64i_WPt VcMxZr07vz.SRBtt.T34wmpmOBXssv9S46zBvqO4Gd4meWvveu1ouj00N4yi UD9tNNyOm8IAdUZEyfbdV3Qc9f7n2DbNOxMt0iORfUTHAVnKqj9mxSrVvIsC NFGNOpFN82WE9rBF7hzGEXkDGy6vDGkt0ej_Chd9ly40vYndTJKc8K31ai.y s6bb3M10djG0MP7Q12t2xh6beFqX5LmUvHjHpS0JwQfb6QKm.bp1fjfFUEtv AIalEcActFYvm6TmXORtwFfyz Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 14:01:56 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/553 YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.285259 References: <20110106204534.GF27821@alice.local> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2011 14:01:56 -0800 (PST) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Semantic Representation of Lojban To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: <20110106204534.GF27821@alice.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.122 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As a practical matter, the first (and officially easiest -- but time will t= ell)=20 part would be to devise the rules for working back from Lojban surface=20 structures to the underlying predicate logic ones: all logical connectives= =20 between sentences, all quantifiers and negations in appropriate prenex posi= tion=20 (so the structure that immediate follows -- a sentence of some sort -- will= be=20 exactly the intended scope). You might also start a bunch of meaning=20 postulates, that relate one concept to others (I suppose, at least initiall= y.=20 that the metalanguage will be English) and throw in the laws of logic just = in=20 case (but they are probably going to be needed early on anyhow, to sort out= =20 issues in prenectification). That ought to be worth a few thousand man-hou= rs. ----- Original Message ---- From: .alyn.post. To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Thu, January 6, 2011 2:45:34 PM Subject: [lojban] Semantic Representation of Lojban [I've moved this to it's own thread for higher visibility of the topic.] On Thu, Jan 06, 2011 at 12:38:23PM -0800, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > Well, to a certain extent you're right, but if you choose the > > right kind of semantic representation, you can do things like > > proving that two different strings of Lojban have the same > > meaning. Correct me if I'm wrong, but at the moment no machine > > grammar of Lojban represents the fact that =93mi viska do=94 is > > equivalent to =93do se viska mi=94. >=20 > Right, very true. People have started playing with that. >=20 I've started playing with it, certainly. Enough to where I'm considering flying out to Penguicon to brainstorm and talk about it with other Lojbanists. If others of you are working on it and are able and interested in meeting about it, will you speak up? -Alan --=20 .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.