From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRDx-pjpBBoEL7OazA@googlegroups.com Thu Jan 06 14:09:02 2011 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Pay0x-0008Jk-Ec; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 14:09:02 -0800 Received: by gxk19 with SMTP id 19sf15707751gxk.16 for ; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 14:08:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=ebykkodasEMD1JXg8nlC6XVLGqRZ0i8cQgCcktCTEMg=; b=F3QGSsIFvqlS3a397deyDFxnERZgn1bffwoH1YdxyR9mk0Kp7iGTGWUYPnx4PSrqe6 L+Xz9waR/joii0RBpt4rncDEleZCzcblWfXZOnxpy73D5Pg4z2WiI5JeS3WoRJmmCnzT 6yiU6RPsYA1H/lERRgyut2/Ew0dNgX56RCbT0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=UhwSwXEV8xpxedL/it8e3GazD32KWihmY8DZLZF40jtJYgdCJvLhKlkUfOLGGlQL8V dS7i4W7I8d8KdFVPrxMdXfd7WWlcC8kaPxNtHHm6kMEsPpK1IACe/jRWyRRLi0yIhG7s 1hYaVtjKTrPQ0D9CkxaNjwEZqn4xGaKWDIJ/4= Received: by 10.91.67.40 with SMTP id u40mr175487agk.3.1294351729342; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 14:08:49 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.100.4.7 with SMTP id 7ls565859and.7.p; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 14:08:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.153.7 with SMTP id a7mr4339668ane.21.1294351728871; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 14:08:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.153.7 with SMTP id a7mr4339667ane.21.1294351728853; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 14:08:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.122]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id c18si10332280anc.6.2011.01.06.14.08.47; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 14:08:47 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.122 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.122; Received: (qmail 75734 invoked by uid 60001); 6 Jan 2011 22:08:47 -0000 Message-ID: <397576.74578.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: mwEjZJgVM1lQNA9DlxOi69BBb0WFEUP9NkgQ765uHa9epDx 6zEP.zWQfOh_Ba5Tli8j0Tjxz.l0_ire4LT8.UYRZVNhY.P4ECd1NDei1I8N 1rmZ6D7Lx_GgxqtJluE5ekGG_jBXNKngAP6V9u95BRlzYxq5.PsAXBg4qm6L 2RTNJQFLGS66H3J5zIxK1qU9gNXHhcOcObx0J4czHC8r2.B.gAtqOw8Xp1fn Dwfw6X3NT92XZ5rFZvEL1huvUY8.Bu36UaM9ZkDFu227HMkxIQKYOGP2Hstw HMfn9EFSNqOOExNsvrOAgJKNhHFcGmyke6II6dsbVo._5iz1brXz86BojY3o QLcTLruNLbU_2TtqazmLcwTOIhTcLMsnNofiNvxHky5eaImbfhEzR_YbBHuf 0.46P3ndbE_Tu Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 14:08:47 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/553 YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.285259 References: <9114501.161.1294150198377.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqhy19> <7c0687a1-deba-495a-9760-95d1d0649423@t8g2000prh.googlegroups.com> <20110105165231.GK17534@digitalkingdom.org> <4D25F32F.8000209@gmail.com> <931644.77513.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4D261C7C.7050503@gmail.com> <753182.62185.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4D2639E1.3010109@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2011 14:08:47 -0800 (PST) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: Lojban is *NOT* broken! Stop saying that! (was Re: [lojban] Re: Vote for the Future Global Language) To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: <4D2639E1.3010109@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.122 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I think we are at cross purposes here. I say that the rules for shifting from Lojban surface to pred log deep are mostly fairly straightforward. You say that getting the changes (mainly, it seems, specifications) needed to work with the remaining cases would be politically difficult (or, at least, involve convincing Robin). Of course, as in the days before Robin's imperatorship, changes can and will be made without telling anyone, everyone picking them up on the fly (see the last decade, at least). ----- Original Message ---- From: And Rosta To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Thu, January 6, 2011 3:53:37 PM Subject: Re: Lojban is *NOT* broken! Stop saying that! (was Re: [lojban] Re: Vote for the Future Global Language) John E Clifford, On 06/01/2011 20:43: >> Efforts along this line tend to involve and idealized >> representational language, almost all of which end up looking a lot like first >> order predicate logic, meaning that the crucial step in the process from > Lojban >> form to meaning would be -- with a few caveats -- a snap. > > Hopefully it would be a snap, but it's these rules that the formal > definition/specification of the language requires, and not the formal grammar > (save for whichever bits of the formal grammar are necessary for the > form--meaning correspondence rules). Regarding the question of whether it would > indeed be a snap, the requisite rules would in most cases need to be invented, > so there'd be a political difficulty at least as much as a linguistic one. > > **I'm not following here. What is the political difficulty in given obvious > rules for untangled conjoined terms or predicates or even blobs like briditail. > There are some less than obvious places, to be sure, but doing the first bit is > already more than we can do -- even by hand -- for any other language. Until Robin assumed his dictatorial powers recently, it was politically impossible to get any change implemented. --And. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.