From lojban+bncCLr6ktCfBBDUh5npBBoE3IRhAw@googlegroups.com Thu Jan 06 14:36:18 2011 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PayRL-0007kZ-3G; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 14:36:18 -0800 Received: by gxk19 with SMTP id 19sf15715265gxk.16 for ; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 14:36:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:date:from:to :subject:message-id:mail-followup-to:references:mime-version :in-reply-to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-disposition:content-transfer-encoding; bh=iIpHAhXKkiLvgfERyKD/9Qj7vxGzbzssSFFgr0EA4FQ=; b=PFntnbW9punHSuoseZcsFoMj8wpWYPoHxhprLU4OsJm0FUhMjBUvmGA5RZikE9LPJD JyXmD0hgEFkJyVPpHKz6yGjozhD5ZtZFwjd1Kfli26v2gXqW3DaxltggxkvPllfyVlix tFe0+lCyU7V6y8Ur60s3gmhehMloun+x3jR1o= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id :mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-disposition:content-transfer-encoding; b=R33U3etxD+zsS8TlPNV8adI5ihHPusGoTFGZYIyWI8M+dC8cUXKdBTNNn9+ZCJBq8Q sUNh+hJUr8tk4sy1pZtKtxPBWga7n3SZahbJGfLzQgJjzNxHJstKMsIIY2NmN9GPMahY tsPrmJuVYgm7ZXy+zetIcsGsZgCWl9fIDJ24o= Received: by 10.146.82.3 with SMTP id f3mr1769483yab.0.1294353364934; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 14:36:04 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.105.19 with SMTP id h19ls124906anm.5.p; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 14:36:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.101.135.21 with SMTP id m21mr4330634ann.7.1294353363734; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 14:36:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.101.135.21 with SMTP id m21mr4330633ann.7.1294353363718; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 14:36:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yw0-f45.google.com (mail-yw0-f45.google.com [209.85.213.45]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id c30si10341453anc.9.2011.01.06.14.36.03 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 06 Jan 2011 14:36:03 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 209.85.213.45 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of alanpost@sunflowerriver.org) client-ip=209.85.213.45; Received: by mail-yw0-f45.google.com with SMTP id 5so7638897ywl.32 for ; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 14:36:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.150.145.9 with SMTP id s9mr23631562ybd.410.1294353362593; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 14:36:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunflowerriver.org (173-10-243-253-Albuquerque.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [173.10.243.253]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id h23sm557674yha.36.2011.01.06.14.36.00 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 06 Jan 2011 14:36:01 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2011 15:35:57 -0700 From: ".alyn.post." To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Semantic Representation of Lojban Message-ID: <20110106223557.GJ27821@alice.local> Mail-Followup-To: lojban@googlegroups.com References: <20110106204534.GF27821@alice.local> <200257.69484.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20110106221107.GI27821@alice.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20110106221107.GI27821@alice.local> X-Original-Sender: alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 209.85.213.45 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of alanpost@sunflowerriver.org) smtp.mail=alanpost@sunflowerriver.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'd like to ellaborate a little more on this, because the link I provided has a low information content. I need to solve problems like this: Nonviolent Communication[1] has a four-part communication model called OFNR[2]. In it, you state your observation, your feeling, your need, and (optionally) a request. This turns out to be difficult, because we constantly mix observations and feelings, state judgements as if they were feelings, &c. It is something that takes practice to do well. I want to be able to classify a Lojban statement based on a constraint, like this: Does statement X consist of an observation, then a feeling, then a need, and then optionally a request. The idea being that one can type in what *seems* like an OFNR statement, and have the computer call you on it if it isn't. The above is actually quite complex, compared to the first version of what I want to do, which is to have a conversation with ~20 valsi and a finite state machine with something like that many states, and use a simple version of the above classifier as to control state transition. The classifier won't need to handle anything outside the scope of those ~20 valsi, save to transition to a "maybe you ought to write that piece you clever monkey" state. I hope that demonstrates that I don't need a formal solution to the problem, but that I need something *like* a solution to the problem, and I hope that gives a better idea of the kind of thing I have in mind, as I'm working on and interested in this topic. -Alan 1: http://www.cnvc.org/ 2: http://en.nvcwiki.com/index.php/Four_part_model On Thu, Jan 06, 2011 at 03:11:07PM -0700, .alyn.post. wrote: > By "playing with it," I mean specifically that I have an application > in mind[1] and will be doing the minimum amount of work in this > domain to support that application, with my goal being to develop > and deliver the application, rather than a formal solution to this > problem. >=20 > The initial version of the application requires only a pathetically > bad approximation to this problem, and so I will be able to use the > result in well under a few thousand man-hours. >=20 > -Alan >=20 > 1: http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/kiksispehi >=20 > On Thu, Jan 06, 2011 at 02:01:56PM -0800, John E Clifford wrote: > > As a practical matter, the first (and officially easiest -- but time wi= ll tell)=20 > > part would be to devise the rules for working back from Lojban surface= =20 > > structures to the underlying predicate logic ones: all logical connecti= ves=20 > > between sentences, all quantifiers and negations in appropriate prenex = position=20 > > (so the structure that immediate follows -- a sentence of some sort -- = will be=20 > > exactly the intended scope). You might also start a bunch of meaning= =20 > > postulates, that relate one concept to others (I suppose, at least init= ially.=20 > > that the metalanguage will be English) and throw in the laws of logic j= ust in=20 > > case (but they are probably going to be needed early on anyhow, to sort= out=20 > > issues in prenectification). That ought to be worth a few thousand man= -hours. > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: .alyn.post. > > To: lojban@googlegroups.com > > Sent: Thu, January 6, 2011 2:45:34 PM > > Subject: [lojban] Semantic Representation of Lojban > >=20 > > [I've moved this to it's own thread for higher visibility of the > > topic.] > >=20 > > On Thu, Jan 06, 2011 at 12:38:23PM -0800, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > > > Well, to a certain extent you're right, but if you choose the > > > > right kind of semantic representation, you can do things like > > > > proving that two different strings of Lojban have the same > > > > meaning. Correct me if I'm wrong, but at the moment no machine > > > > grammar of Lojban represents the fact that =93mi viska do=94 is > > > > equivalent to =93do se viska mi=94. > > >=20 > > > Right, very true. People have started playing with that. > > >=20 > >=20 > > I've started playing with it, certainly. Enough to where I'm > > considering flying out to Penguicon to brainstorm and talk about > > it with other Lojbanists. > >=20 > > If others of you are working on it and are able and interested in > > meeting about it, will you speak up? > >=20 > > -Alan > > --=20 > > .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi > >=20 > > --=20 > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps=20 > > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at=20 > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > >=20 > >=20 > > =20 > >=20 > > --=20 > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@google= groups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lo= jban?hl=3Den. > >=20 >=20 > --=20 > .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi --=20 .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.