From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRClxpnpBBoE6OA7nw@googlegroups.com Thu Jan 06 16:49:56 2011 Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Pb0We-00008K-Qj; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 16:49:56 -0800 Received: by yxn35 with SMTP id 35sf15794795yxn.16 for ; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 16:49:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=vJgL64jGCIiASYVxABWSYORz3lKy4Mmk8yoXp/af8nU=; b=2Ac3kYLQjsBVY9Sh1QG7Lb6M2XnQP3ByECA6T9gEa9CFuxEV0tXSTRON9HxjhbK3gD F8ttV6z2AnlToUJYRc2lk6p5Pp8u8m/nX0s/srdUoFvkLMdtQ9B/OLP0z6lDUZRvczxI rhVw/Km960J74Q+tAljwV9VyfeX4g3k9ylhxU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=281AsyydTwK8hPH6IiUaK7Yru9DOBU/tIfDuH69k0E+rJTef376ngi11iEtbqxKt9g QdBYLN7VAnfVxCfvT6Ky/FxU0mdI53Emch+F0C7DYMZhEc1+SuEk3drzUwnPuWwMa/Gh cE4UkEUzDUMlYv/mYpnRTdSKL6WdpUwWJa/1I= Received: by 10.151.94.4 with SMTP id w4mr1789426ybl.14.1294361381024; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 16:49:41 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.150.197.14 with SMTP id u14ls2723541ybf.7.p; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 16:49:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.150.212.19 with SMTP id k19mr3280543ybg.28.1294361379830; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 16:49:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.150.212.19 with SMTP id k19mr3280542ybg.28.1294361379800; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 16:49:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.118]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id u22si2394397yba.15.2011.01.06.16.49.38; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 16:49:38 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.118 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.118; Received: (qmail 351 invoked by uid 60001); 7 Jan 2011 00:49:38 -0000 Message-ID: <259280.334.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: YN.v1DgVM1nR38Z5nUApKx6kMJP0m8iEcvDTXMtPEKbV9tW BZI6d5Yl34tOKI8LO.xQfNCd0d7s3uaNeiKaKEJ.0XvHof732HEtX4ibvcYj meXzryrUjeMNUD77K0tlllbvSKZHGEhuykmGUKxxrkkLggDCvsQ7CU9DPWfI XPvS_MYzjnjBPyIRljuLNhGotHQ0xyaGfeL5FUMf8Ze74EKDVxsbswfXiFw4 e9NKT4gjelgruzAPKs6QBZLOWL0d9Q7iqTlopTlPTnwl997hRdw.bGzIUc0o vPxcoMy3MpA19NbWigeJW4Vl8CGZe.6S84Ib6BCKPwfMYU2WJ9isXrAuDf6q qlE8rPnOMB409NUT8u10jRmhsSCkF4jQu20UOgVh3xnbNmhQAIYdKNt7VHSr GLBqOF4bCQvZdO6qoDfQ57qY- Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 16:49:38 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/553 YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.285259 References: <20110106204534.GF27821@alice.local> <200257.69484.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20110106221107.GI27821@alice.local> <20110106223557.GJ27821@alice.local> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2011 16:49:38 -0800 (PST) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Semantic Representation of Lojban To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: <20110106223557.GJ27821@alice.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.118 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable OK, cool. My thought was to do the pred log first and then deal with what = is=20 left over, yours is to sort out the pred log and (much of) the leftover fir= st=20 and deal with a lot of that leftover. We are both going to run into the pr= oblem=20 of overlap at some point, apparently factual sentences that are used to exp= ress=20 emotions and the opposite. Until the, however, we can start with the clear= ly=20 marked bits of Lojban: attitudinals to express emotions, imperatives to exp= ress=20 requests, the fraught sentences with 'djica' and 'nitcu' to express/report= =20 needs. So far, this is vocab look up and a little parsing. What comes nex= t in=20 terms of making these classifications when they are embedded or implicit or= =20 disguised? And, of course, how much of this hinges on fairly complete word= =20 semantics for various preds and compounds? The first part won't take a tho= usand=20 hours (nor probably a hundred). the next part leads you into the whirlpool = that=20 also involves the other approach, so step-wise mutual adapting, hopefully a= lways=20 in an upward direction. ----- Original Message ---- From: .alyn.post. To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Thu, January 6, 2011 4:35:57 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] Semantic Representation of Lojban I'd like to ellaborate a little more on this, because the link I provided has a low information content. I need to solve problems like this: Nonviolent Communication[1] has a four-part communication model called OFNR[2]. In it, you state your observation, your feeling, your need, and (optionally) a request. This turns out to be difficult, because we constantly mix observations and feelings, state judgements as if they were feelings, &c. It is something that takes practice to do well. I want to be able to classify a Lojban statement based on a constraint, like this: Does statement X consist of an observation, then a feeling, then a need, and then optionally a request. The idea being that one can type in what *seems* like an OFNR statement, and have the computer call you on it if it isn't. The above is actually quite complex, compared to the first version of what I want to do, which is to have a conversation with ~20 valsi and a finite state machine with something like that many states, and use a simple version of the above classifier as to control state transition. The classifier won't need to handle anything outside the scope of those ~20 valsi, save to transition to a "maybe you ought to write that piece you clever monkey" state. I hope that demonstrates that I don't need a formal solution to the problem, but that I need something *like* a solution to the problem, and I hope that gives a better idea of the kind of thing I have in mind, as I'm working on and interested in this topic. -Alan 1: http://www.cnvc.org/ 2: http://en.nvcwiki.com/index.php/Four_part_model On Thu, Jan 06, 2011 at 03:11:07PM -0700, .alyn.post. wrote: > By "playing with it," I mean specifically that I have an application > in mind[1] and will be doing the minimum amount of work in this > domain to support that application, with my goal being to develop > and deliver the application, rather than a formal solution to this > problem. >=20 > The initial version of the application requires only a pathetically > bad approximation to this problem, and so I will be able to use the > result in well under a few thousand man-hours. >=20 > -Alan >=20 > 1: http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/kiksispehi >=20 > On Thu, Jan 06, 2011 at 02:01:56PM -0800, John E Clifford wrote: > > As a practical matter, the first (and officially easiest -- but time wi= ll=20 >tell)=20 > > > part would be to devise the rules for working back from Lojban surface= =20 > > structures to the underlying predicate logic ones: all logical connecti= ves=20 > > between sentences, all quantifiers and negations in appropriate prenex= =20 >position=20 > > > (so the structure that immediate follows -- a sentence of some sort -- = will=20 >be=20 > > > exactly the intended scope). You might also start a bunch of meaning= =20 > > postulates, that relate one concept to others (I suppose, at least init= ially.=20 > > > that the metalanguage will be English) and throw in the laws of logic j= ust in=20 > > > case (but they are probably going to be needed early on anyhow, to sort= out=20 > > issues in prenectification). That ought to be worth a few thousand=20 >man-hours. > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: .alyn.post. > > To: lojban@googlegroups.com > > Sent: Thu, January 6, 2011 2:45:34 PM > > Subject: [lojban] Semantic Representation of Lojban > >=20 > > [I've moved this to it's own thread for higher visibility of the > > topic.] > >=20 > > On Thu, Jan 06, 2011 at 12:38:23PM -0800, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > > > Well, to a certain extent you're right, but if you choose the > > > > right kind of semantic representation, you can do things like > > > > proving that two different strings of Lojban have the same > > > > meaning. Correct me if I'm wrong, but at the moment no machine > > > > grammar of Lojban represents the fact that =93mi viska do=94 is > > > > equivalent to =93do se viska mi=94. > > >=20 > > > Right, very true. People have started playing with that. > > >=20 > >=20 > > I've started playing with it, certainly. Enough to where I'm > > considering flying out to Penguicon to brainstorm and talk about > > it with other Lojbanists. > >=20 > > If others of you are working on it and are able and interested in > > meeting about it, will you speak up? > >=20 > > -Alan > > --=20 > > .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi > >=20 > > --=20 > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps=20 > > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at=20 > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > >=20 > >=20 > > =20 > >=20 > > --=20 > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps=20 >"lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 >lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at=20 >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > >=20 >=20 > --=20 > .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi --=20 .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.