From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhCyx5npBBoEIUQ8wQ@googlegroups.com Thu Jan 06 16:52:17 2011 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Pb0Yu-0000De-VZ; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 16:52:17 -0800 Received: by gyb11 with SMTP id 11sf15311836gyb.16 for ; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 16:52:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=F9g7xhxlPMWngBK8GmK69aS+Oz51B/XKrrxCeWCoMNc=; b=dtMNqYTZksre8m8hWFIeBZkFjaRpUQIwjzHG9jSGhh38fpILQGI0IZyiBmOgO+uZlX Ry+m37q8kZmOXwm5XxXJbvG3XtKv3ALjJe7nTiuFfB9S6KVmJwQDqZ9psox1YvsR61Mh ME7dFGfoz0VJw+DGcSzHaLMHvIVTgNwL1Di5Y= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=sGip21rVX6gnj6qGVlW0Z6GyQill9CG8F39GDWa/PAsNAb9b4BB56Uvl1R5h30/PyY ly1Diq9Csj2iFCMmKqDUYNv+kuz6OCGLUiFmlErUSCN8kVoLZwJVQ+k9oeY5wdoNo94w 62Pt5xuCoNenxIWnrdbWN0eAhCISUw60N4nNc= Received: by 10.100.31.19 with SMTP id e19mr191855ane.35.1294361523021; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 16:52:03 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.76.225 with SMTP id d33ls170319ibk.2.p; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 16:52:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.11.193 with SMTP id u1mr9529305ibu.7.1294361522394; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 16:52:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.11.193 with SMTP id u1mr9529302ibu.7.1294361522365; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 16:52:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iy0-f180.google.com (mail-iy0-f180.google.com [209.85.210.180]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id c4si8241ict.0.2011.01.06.16.52.01; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 16:52:01 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.180 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.210.180; Received: by mail-iy0-f180.google.com with SMTP id 12so14791403iyi.39 for ; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 16:52:01 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.206.1 with SMTP id fs1mr246207ibb.193.1294361521265; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 16:52:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.199.140 with HTTP; Thu, 6 Jan 2011 16:52:01 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <9114501.161.1294150198377.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqhy19> <7c0687a1-deba-495a-9760-95d1d0649423@t8g2000prh.googlegroups.com> <20110105165231.GK17534@digitalkingdom.org> <20110105220532.GN17534@digitalkingdom.org> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2011 17:52:01 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Lojban is *NOT* broken! Stop saying that! (was Re: [lojban] Re: Vote for the Future Global Language) From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.180 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=90e6ba53b528af9c2a049937064e --90e6ba53b528af9c2a049937064e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 7:33 PM, Ivo Doko wrote: > > On 6 January 2011 03:17, Jonathan Jones wrote: >> >> Waiter: Do you want cream or sugar in your coffee? >> >> Lojbanist: Yes. > > Proper response is "I do." :D Unless you drink your coffee with neither..= . If you want your coffee with neither, the correct answer is "no". "I do" an= d "yes" are merely semantically different - the meaning is the same in both responses. > > Also, that would depend on the waiter's emphasis of the sentence: > > "Do you want CREAM or SUGAR in your coffee?" > > means: > > "Is this true: (You want cream in your coffee. =E2=8A=95 You want sugar i= n your coffee.)?" > > "Do you WANT cream or sugar in your coffee?" > > means: > > "Is this true: (You want cream in your coffee. =E2=88=A8 You want sugar i= n your coffee.)?" > > ("=E2=8A=95" is XOR, "=E2=88=A8" is OR.) > > So presuming the waiter emphasised "cream" and "sugar", not "want", "yes" or "I do" are not proper responses. It doesn't matter what the waiter emphasized. Let us assign the following: p =3D wants cream q =3D wants sugar (Taken directly from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_table#Logical_disjunction): The truth table for p OR q (also written as p =E2=88=A8 q, p || q, or p + q= ) is as follows: ** *p* *q* *p* =E2=88=A8 *q* T T T T F T F T T F F F L1 (wants= cream, but not sugar): Yes. L2 (wants sugar, but not cream): Yes. L3 (wants both cream and sugar): Yes. L4 (wants neither): No. To translate the waiter's sentence into Lojban: W: xu do djica lo nu lo kruji .a lo sakta cu nenri lo ckafi Lojban {.a}, by the way, is Logical OR. XOR is {.onai}. -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu d= o zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --90e6ba53b528af9c2a049937064e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 7:33 PM, Ivo Doko <ivo.doko@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 6 January 2011= 03:17, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gma= il.com> wrote:
>>
>> Waiter: Do you want cream or sugar in your coffee?
= >>
>> Lojbanist: Yes.
>
> Proper response is &qu= ot;I do." :D Unless you drink your coffee with neither...

If yo= u want your coffee with neither, the correct answer is "no". &quo= t;I do" and "yes" are merely semantically different - the me= aning is the same in both responses.
=C2=A0
>
> Also, that would depend on the waiter's emphasis= of the sentence:
>
> "Do you want CREAM or SUGAR in your = coffee?"
>
> means:
>
> "Is this true: (Y= ou want cream in your coffee. =E2=8A=95 You want sugar in your coffee.)?&qu= ot;
>
> "Do you WANT cream or sugar in your coffee?"
>=
> means:
>
> "Is this true: (You want cream in your= coffee. =E2=88=A8 You want sugar in your coffee.)?"
>
> (= "=E2=8A=95" is XOR, "=E2=88=A8" is OR.)
>
> So presuming the waiter emphasised "cream" and "= ;sugar", not "want", "yes" or "I do" are= not proper responses.=C2=A0

=C2=A0
It doesn't matter what th= e waiter emphasized.

Let us assign the following:
p =3D wants cream
q =3D wants sugar<= br>
(Taken directly from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_table#Logical_= disjunction):
The truth table for p OR q (also written as p =E2=88=A8 q, p || q, or p + q= ) is as follows:
p q p =E2=88=A8 q
T T T
T F T
F T T
F F F
L1 (wants cream, but not sugar): Yes.
L2 (wants sugar, b= ut not cream): Yes.
L3 (wants both cream and sugar): Yes.
L4 (wants n= either): No.

To translate the waiter's sentence into Lojban:

W: xu do djica lo nu lo kruji .a lo sakta cu nenri lo ckafi

Lojb= an {.a}, by the way, is Logical OR. XOR is {.onai}.

--
mu'o m= i'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be= denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
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