From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRCMzJnpBBoEvY9Sfg@googlegroups.com Thu Jan 06 17:02:18 2011 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Pb0ic-0000dF-QM; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 17:02:18 -0800 Received: by wwb34 with SMTP id 34sf18516903wwb.16 for ; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 17:02:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=L8zxVNHRiEsXRrjLb6nnVtStT71fRGLWLgP4PKwluog=; b=alXjwDMnxGv0R2qMBvXzzLJdl1wm85S4oPoaMcsgW0mvM4yRbRvFrw0Cg6WskHZ71K FhkuEC2lDxm13nn7ZB4t+ws7ySneE6w9opyw36lnhy8A6cLDz1FOk0t3LXzbpevXaop9 hyZzA7Mbkqd7FJQhTlJPOhlvJnUM0saDaRfaA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=AJZVzNio5PgTPLmDdBDLZz4mhKvkbqGOpd+BD1JLRpuwa+vTNu1wBhnfaj/N5kV7Wa ZuvmjBbRtUdX93PANVu0gYOGefQIvB5Nf59E94l/XPM0e+i6TzlUQAg+ajs2rd/nNorh Xih8mVwiHdlTEOfARVlg5FRvUov9ZZYw59+Ug= Received: by 10.216.140.22 with SMTP id d22mr264252wej.26.1294362124232; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 17:02:04 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.184.76 with SMTP id cj12ls4693752wbb.3.p; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 17:02:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.135.17 with SMTP id l17mr820442wbt.19.1294362123019; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 17:02:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.135.17 with SMTP id l17mr820441wbt.19.1294362122972; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 17:02:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wy0-f171.google.com (mail-wy0-f171.google.com [74.125.82.171]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id t13si3853248wbc.0.2011.01.06.17.02.01; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 17:02:01 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.171 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.171; Received: by wyb38 with SMTP id 38so17158898wyb.30 for ; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 17:02:01 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.152.71 with SMTP id f7mr14913072wbw.144.1294362121342; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 17:02:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.54.72 with HTTP; Thu, 6 Jan 2011 17:02:01 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4D26227D.4080207@gmail.com> References: <20110105220532.GN17534@digitalkingdom.org> <4D25D915.9080305@lojban.org> <4D25F6F2.7050205@gmail.com> <20110106171943.GZ17534@digitalkingdom.org> <4D260F63.7090101@gmail.com> <20110106190153.GB23787@digitalkingdom.org> <4D26227D.4080207@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2011 22:02:01 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Lojban is *NOT* broken! Stop saying that! (was Re: [lojban] Re: Vote for the Future Global Language) From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.171 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 5:13 PM, And Rosta wrote: > Robin Lee Powell, On 06/01/2011 19:01: >> On Thu, Jan 06, 2011 at 06:52:19PM +0000, And Rosta wrote: >>> >>> Xorxes proposed a rule that items in higher clauses have scope >>> over items in lower clauses (i.e. that items export to the prenex >>> of the localmost clause) and that when two items are in the same >>> clause, the leftward element has scope over the rightward. (It's a >>> shame to have to 'pollute' the purely hierarchical structure of >>> logical form with left-to-right order of forms, but it's by far >>> the simplest way to rescue Lojban in its (then) current state. >>> Perhaps the BPFK has made xorxes's rule official, in which case I >>> wonder what happened to the rule about the scope of selbri tcita >>> "na", and to the scope of selbri tcita in general.) >> >> I didn't know that was xorxes' rule; I thought left-to-right >> quantifier scope was in the CLL. =A0Yes, indeed: >> http://dag.github.com/cll/16/5/ "The rule for dropping the prenex is >> simple: if the variables appear in the same order within the bridi >> as they did in the prenex, then the prenex is superfluous.". I precede CLL in the Lojbanic timeline, so the fact that it is in CLL doesn't automatically rule out I might have had something to do with it, but in fact the left-to-right rule was already in place when I started learning Lojban. I have often argued against the related "na" rule however, and the contradictions and/or convolutions that it causes, and I am confident that that will eventually be fixed. > My mistake -- failure of memory. Presumably the then-unofficial rule was = to > generalize CLL's left-to-right rule for all elements in the bridi (with t= he > possible exception of some or all selbri tcita) and to make explicit the > rule that things export to the localmost rather than outermost prenex (wh= en > you have one bridi within another). Yes, I think I did take part in discussions about that part. I'm not sure the BPFK has said anything on that matter though, so even though I have a well formed opinion on what scopes over what for most cases, it is doubtful that there is any official last word on the matter. In fact the CLL has a pretty confusing section on termsets and quantifiers with "equal scope", so I would say the matter is actually still officially ill-defined. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.