From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRDrzpnpBBoEFKfz9A@googlegroups.com Thu Jan 06 17:08:10 2011 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Pb0oI-0000r6-BT; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 17:08:10 -0800 Received: by wwb34 with SMTP id 34sf18517861wwb.16 for ; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 17:07:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=bduvsGrt3Uv+bxcPyNKKXd7g1K38lip4eVSWR5h3PDQ=; b=uVmzyEwY8mBmQPog8ByltDYwqT4FBFEaTG1KR7xifq4H2lOVdjF1qcHW0Ikt3M/iVe CS3wOU+0Ss87cwzEWCLejmfmASVK84JSnvFpdwQVdK30CFrgXoBNh1f2ErRg5cXdfIg4 R/EpsH5eb2Lr7u7rdH3tNEiqX4vM0nNxm+w2M= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=I3UTyACwue7NxOsl7DhkAgEaT93sPqSCTquAqc5a4LMlJs11c9NL2WzEhkx1JdP5ko ebZTrVOXhTICnnZL6KBmEeAsGknGPcb+aq9JPS+G5WKTda92gBpsGcbvN7C6EDMyb70a 0mfhGDc19Q0K9Tk90sLh3dzx94Jkv4DKHEalE= Received: by 10.216.186.138 with SMTP id w10mr1441963wem.15.1294362475850; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 17:07:55 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.102.89 with SMTP id f25ls2023546wbo.0.p; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 17:07:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.152.130 with SMTP id g2mr836013wbw.25.1294362474832; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 17:07:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.152.130 with SMTP id g2mr836012wbw.25.1294362474808; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 17:07:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.119]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id t13si3853857wbc.4.2011.01.06.17.07.53; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 17:07:53 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.119 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.119; Received: (qmail 14021 invoked by uid 60001); 7 Jan 2011 01:06:49 -0000 Message-ID: <673286.9022.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: j6A3e9cVM1kenng2ZqYQKam2ATHEdBOexK0F8.Vn2OesiaC ARl.V5BB4Ns7VqNVuMwKQW4XA8wdBU9TjZNXH6Si0rmLCSf52qbTRQHNBpR6 r6vH4coWlPpli2gNwCy3I_7h8cJAYJ7kThD.xE9qUzla.22A8eM3JK9NloVC MtEkpRH_h8wAhogqU6iv8w3GWeUUFXHFzhDfDt7wyrDIx6mnm6zlCXF41_w8 xnibiL3uXJoq4USbN4feHcPvPNIsyX07wje.HUFfm631.v5_mP.6v8eplDZV jFevzz_xy_zMKDRfz2gG_u5TefWhCIunwHfcedpJ6eywHcXF20cvqWyJ2QJH grii1Lk1Uf4cJ8ri8Yb0W5hngh_.3Vuim4lxs78JfMnmZfATZ8fj4rJh0g31 KbjuBxVTrJ3o1Bg-- Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 17:06:49 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/553 YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.285259 References: <9114501.161.1294150198377.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqhy19> <7c0687a1-deba-495a-9760-95d1d0649423@t8g2000prh.googlegroups.com> <20110105165231.GK17534@digitalkingdom.org> <20110105220532.GN17534@digitalkingdom.org> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2011 17:06:49 -0800 (PST) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: Lojban is *NOT* broken! Stop saying that! (was Re: [lojban] Re: Vote for the Future Global Language) To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.119 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-515029843-1294362409=:9022" --0-515029843-1294362409=:9022 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is one of those little problems that needs to be solved, so the the=20 answers: cream, sugar, both or neither are all correct. ________________________________ From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Thu, January 6, 2011 6:52:01 PM Subject: Re: Lojban is *NOT* broken! Stop saying that! (was Re: [lojban] Re= :=20 Vote for the Future Global Language) On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 7:33 PM, Ivo Doko wrote: > > On 6 January 2011 03:17, Jonathan Jones wrote: >> >> Waiter: Do you want cream or sugar in your coffee? >> >> Lojbanist: Yes. > > Proper response is "I do." :D Unless you drink your coffee with neither..= . If you want your coffee with neither, the correct answer is "no". "I do" an= d=20 "yes" are merely semantically different - the meaning is the same in both= =20 responses. =20 > > Also, that would depend on the waiter's emphasis of the sentence: > > "Do you want CREAM or SUGAR in your coffee?" > > means: > > "Is this true: (You want cream in your coffee. =E2=8A=95 You want sugar i= n your=20 >coffee.)?" > > "Do you WANT cream or sugar in your coffee?" > > means: > > "Is this true: (You want cream in your coffee. =E2=88=A8 You want sugar i= n your=20 >coffee.)?" > > ("=E2=8A=95" is XOR, "=E2=88=A8" is OR.) > > So presuming the waiter emphasised "cream" and "sugar", not "want", "yes"= or "I=20 >do" are not proper responses.=20 =20 It doesn't matter what the waiter emphasized. Let us assign the following: p =3D wants cream q =3D wants sugar (Taken directly from=20 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_table#Logical_disjunction): The truth table for p OR q (also written as p =E2=88=A8 q, p || q, or p + q= ) is as=20 follows:=20 =20 p q p =E2=88=A8 q T T T=20 T F T=20 F T T=20 F F F L1 (wants cream, but not sugar): Yes. L2 (wants sugar, but not cream): Yes. L3 (wants both cream and sugar): Yes. L4 (wants neither): No. To translate the waiter's sentence into Lojban: W: xu do djica lo nu lo kruji .a lo sakta cu nenri lo ckafi Lojban {.a}, by the way, is Logical OR. XOR is {.onai}. -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu d= o=20 zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0-515029843-1294362409=:9022 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is one of those little problems that needs to be sol= ved, so the the answers: cream, sugar, both or neither are all correct.
=


<= b>From: Jonathan Jones <ey= eonus@gmail.com>
To:= lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, January 6, 2011 6:52:01 PM
Subject: Re: Lojban is *NOT* broken! Stop saying that! (wa= s Re: [lojban] Re: Vote for the Future Global Language)

On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 7:33 PM, Ivo Doko <ivo.doko@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 6 January 2011 0= 3:17, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.co= m> wrote:
>>
>> Waiter: Do you want cream or sugar in your coffee?
= >>
>> Lojbanist: Yes.
>
> Proper response is "I = do." :D Unless you drink your coffee with neither...

If you want you= r coffee with neither, the correct answer is "no". "I do" and "yes" are mer= ely semantically different - the meaning is the same in both responses.
 
>
> Also, that would depend on the waiter's emphasis of = the sentence:
>
> "Do you want CREAM or SUGAR in your coffee?"<= br>>
> means:
>
> "Is this true: (You want cream in yo= ur coffee. =E2=8A=95 You want sugar in your coffee.)?"
>
> "Do you WANT cream or sugar in your coffee?"
>
> m= eans:
>
> "Is this true: (You want cream in your coffee. =E2=88= =A8 You want sugar in your coffee.)?"
>
> ("=E2=8A=95" is XOR, = "=E2=88=A8" is OR.)
>
> So presuming the waiter emphasised "cream" and "sugar", not "w= ant", "yes" or "I do" are not proper responses. 

 
It d= oesn't matter what the waiter emphasized.

Let us assign the following:
p =3D wants cream
q =3D wants sugar<= br>
(Taken directly from http://en.wikipedia.org/w= iki/Truth_table#Logical_disjunction):
The truth table for p OR q (also written as p =E2=88=A8 q, p || q, or p + q= ) is as follows:


p q p =E2=88=A8 q
T T T
T F T
F T T
F F F
L1 (wants cream, but not sugar): Yes.
L2 (wants sugar, b= ut not cream): Yes.
L3 (wants both cream and sugar): Yes.
L4 (wants n= either): No.

To translate the waiter's sentence into Lojban:

W: xu do djica lo nu lo kruji .a lo sakta cu nenri lo ckafi

Lojb= an {.a}, by the way, is Logical OR. XOR is {.onai}.

--
mu'o mi'e = .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi= .luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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