From lojban+bncCLr6ktCfBBCNjpzpBBoE4LZOjQ@googlegroups.com Fri Jan 07 04:29:16 2011 Received: from mail-pv0-f189.google.com ([74.125.83.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PbBRQ-0004kN-4C; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 04:29:16 -0800 Received: by pvh1 with SMTP id 1sf6870703pvh.16 for ; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 04:29:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:date:from:to :subject:message-id:mail-followup-to:references:mime-version :in-reply-to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-disposition:content-transfer-encoding; bh=MG6Vf7tQrzXDQTwBEtISqaEDbKzFNq6zXjG1qAeqDP8=; b=i9iRl/W7KhtngLGgoHM85ZYs+FT47RdsZUvNc9GiUVQo7pAibjgWiV8Cf0WeSv/wh4 w5VAf0ryXoB2H4a7zpThsRam+Ix+ZmLg11J0jdIB9F10GK/QUg2YpccrKULcsQNuIJ4C caKLjsOCfHt+6jrqFgqtn7/htYwb8ukhed9iU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id :mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-disposition:content-transfer-encoding; b=gMAxK/x8b0VqkQ29wpAn1L5wIC8UmtNbYi8eWTWtgXE3A+hE40PIJz1dTctqtktxO0 yVzWQ6lWyFjkt9N6trOby7y28kKXTjpUT9a60AP1C72QAfx4IIHZyMtgp1PT5s2esfaq XiQCOD4BTOYcNStsEK56Uivfvn7UkcZa7Z/lE= Received: by 10.143.86.1 with SMTP id o1mr128335wfl.57.1294403341206; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 04:29:01 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.142.2.41 with SMTP id 41ls26993637wfb.0.p; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 04:29:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.211.16 with SMTP id j16mr1695017wfg.17.1294403340206; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 04:29:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.211.16 with SMTP id j16mr1695016wfg.17.1294403340176; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 04:29:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pw0-f46.google.com (mail-pw0-f46.google.com [209.85.160.46]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id p40si2190308wfc.2.2011.01.07.04.28.59; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 04:28:59 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 209.85.160.46 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of alanpost@sunflowerriver.org) client-ip=209.85.160.46; Received: by pwj3 with SMTP id 3so2769170pwj.5 for ; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 04:28:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.13.5 with SMTP id 5mr1674158wfm.403.1294403339686; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 04:28:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunflowerriver.org (c-68-35-167-179.hsd1.nm.comcast.net [68.35.167.179]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id q13sm2588902wfc.5.2011.01.07.04.28.55 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 07 Jan 2011 04:28:57 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2011 05:28:53 -0700 From: ".alyn.post." To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Semantic Representation of Lojban Message-ID: <20110107122853.GA30364@alice.local> Mail-Followup-To: lojban@googlegroups.com References: <20110106204534.GF27821@alice.local> <200257.69484.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20110106221107.GI27821@alice.local> <20110106223557.GJ27821@alice.local> <259280.334.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <259280.334.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Original-Sender: alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 209.85.160.46 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of alanpost@sunflowerriver.org) smtp.mail=alanpost@sunflowerriver.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've realized that I'll need to look at sentences like "I promise X [though my finger is crossed.]"[1] because of their appearing to say "I promise X." And I've gotten about that far with that particular problem. :-) I'm only clear on the first three steps I'll be taking to work on this problem, and I'm roughly planning on adding bits of logic and leftovers until I find something that appears to contradict some step I've already taken. Or, more likely, I'm not nearly so lucky as that and reach a point where I don't understand what a Lojban statement class is formally trying to express, and need help translating it. I'm really happy you're interested in this stuff. I'll be happy to check in when I have an interesting application, a fun example, or anything else thought provoking. If you build any datasets I'd be happy to hear about them as well. Happy Hacking, -Alan 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossed_fingers, though the cultural referent I'm making (documented in the first paragraph) is not cited! On Thu, Jan 06, 2011 at 04:49:38PM -0800, John E Clifford wrote: > OK, cool. My thought was to do the pred log first and then deal with wha= t is=20 > left over, yours is to sort out the pred log and (much of) the leftover f= irst=20 > and deal with a lot of that leftover. We are both going to run into the = problem=20 > of overlap at some point, apparently factual sentences that are used to e= xpress=20 > emotions and the opposite. Until the, however, we can start with the cle= arly=20 > marked bits of Lojban: attitudinals to express emotions, imperatives to e= xpress=20 > requests, the fraught sentences with 'djica' and 'nitcu' to express/repor= t=20 > needs. So far, this is vocab look up and a little parsing. What comes n= ext in=20 > terms of making these classifications when they are embedded or implicit = or=20 > disguised? And, of course, how much of this hinges on fairly complete wo= rd=20 > semantics for various preds and compounds? The first part won't take a t= housand=20 > hours (nor probably a hundred). the next part leads you into the whirlpoo= l that=20 > also involves the other approach, so step-wise mutual adapting, hopefully= always=20 > in an upward direction. >=20 >=20 >=20 > ----- Original Message ---- > From: .alyn.post. > To: lojban@googlegroups.com > Sent: Thu, January 6, 2011 4:35:57 PM > Subject: Re: [lojban] Semantic Representation of Lojban >=20 > I'd like to ellaborate a little more on this, because the link I > provided has a low information content. I need to solve problems > like this: >=20 > Nonviolent Communication[1] has a four-part communication model > called OFNR[2]. In it, you state your observation, your feeling, > your need, and (optionally) a request. >=20 > This turns out to be difficult, because we constantly mix > observations and feelings, state judgements as if they were > feelings, &c. It is something that takes practice to do well. >=20 > I want to be able to classify a Lojban statement based on a > constraint, like this: >=20 > Does statement X consist of an observation, then a feeling, then > a need, and then optionally a request. >=20 > The idea being that one can type in what *seems* like an OFNR > statement, and have the computer call you on it if it isn't. >=20 > The above is actually quite complex, compared to the first version > of what I want to do, which is to have a conversation with ~20 valsi > and a finite state machine with something like that many states, and > use a simple version of the above classifier as to control state > transition. The classifier won't need to handle anything outside > the scope of those ~20 valsi, save to transition to a "maybe you > ought to write that piece you clever monkey" state. >=20 > I hope that demonstrates that I don't need a formal solution to the > problem, but that I need something *like* a solution to the problem, > and I hope that gives a better idea of the kind of thing I have in > mind, as I'm working on and interested in this topic. >=20 > -Alan >=20 > 1: http://www.cnvc.org/ > 2: http://en.nvcwiki.com/index.php/Four_part_model >=20 > On Thu, Jan 06, 2011 at 03:11:07PM -0700, .alyn.post. wrote: > > By "playing with it," I mean specifically that I have an application > > in mind[1] and will be doing the minimum amount of work in this > > domain to support that application, with my goal being to develop > > and deliver the application, rather than a formal solution to this > > problem. > >=20 > > The initial version of the application requires only a pathetically > > bad approximation to this problem, and so I will be able to use the > > result in well under a few thousand man-hours. > >=20 > > -Alan > >=20 > > 1: http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/kiksispehi > >=20 > > On Thu, Jan 06, 2011 at 02:01:56PM -0800, John E Clifford wrote: > > > As a practical matter, the first (and officially easiest -- but time = will=20 > >tell)=20 > > > > > part would be to devise the rules for working back from Lojban surfac= e=20 > > > structures to the underlying predicate logic ones: all logical connec= tives=20 > > > between sentences, all quantifiers and negations in appropriate prene= x=20 > >position=20 > > > > > (so the structure that immediate follows -- a sentence of some sort -= - will=20 > >be=20 > > > > > exactly the intended scope). You might also start a bunch of meaning= =20 > > > postulates, that relate one concept to others (I suppose, at least in= itially.=20 > > > > > that the metalanguage will be English) and throw in the laws of logic= just in=20 > > > > > case (but they are probably going to be needed early on anyhow, to so= rt out=20 > > > issues in prenectification). That ought to be worth a few thousand= =20 > >man-hours. > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: .alyn.post. > > > To: lojban@googlegroups.com > > > Sent: Thu, January 6, 2011 2:45:34 PM > > > Subject: [lojban] Semantic Representation of Lojban > > >=20 > > > [I've moved this to it's own thread for higher visibility of the > > > topic.] > > >=20 > > > On Thu, Jan 06, 2011 at 12:38:23PM -0800, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > > > > Well, to a certain extent you're right, but if you choose the > > > > > right kind of semantic representation, you can do things like > > > > > proving that two different strings of Lojban have the same > > > > > meaning. Correct me if I'm wrong, but at the moment no machine > > > > > grammar of Lojban represents the fact that =93mi viska do=94 is > > > > > equivalent to =93do se viska mi=94. > > > >=20 > > > > Right, very true. People have started playing with that. > > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > I've started playing with it, certainly. Enough to where I'm > > > considering flying out to Penguicon to brainstorm and talk about > > > it with other Lojbanists. > > >=20 > > > If others of you are working on it and are able and interested in > > > meeting about it, will you speak up? > > >=20 > > > -Alan > > > --=20 > > > .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi > > >=20 > > > --=20 > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gr= oups=20 > > > "lojban" group. > > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 > > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > > For more options, visit this group at=20 > > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > =20 > > >=20 > > > --=20 > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gr= oups=20 > >"lojban" group. > > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 > >lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > > For more options, visit this group at=20 > >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > >=20 > >=20 > > --=20 > > .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi >=20 > --=20 > .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at=20 > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an?hl=3Den. >=20 --=20 .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.