From lojban+bncCIKvs97fFhDX75zpBBoELrew8A@googlegroups.com Fri Jan 07 07:57:28 2011 Received: from mail-qw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PbEgr-0005Or-Ka; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 07:57:27 -0800 Received: by qwd6 with SMTP id 6sf57845256qwd.16 for ; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 07:57:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received :mime-version:received:received:date:in-reply-to:x-ip:references :user-agent:x-http-useragent:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=WXtHeuCSIc8SgnF2QlDxdxA5YhkSP5p7hkXEYQNNGBE=; b=rOfrLNUzWHhs0tbiTe7R8hqRkhWas+LmTWy58uqUDfMxyGvbGiE9ulTegTeG6LxO1b LdscTIahucpMamUJXYsoEY6RbaM9JqZ6Que9GBXEuJmdnM6TuRS+eHF2wmfHiYEC1YAo OsYiwK2wd+zq6qD8L295DCUz7zv7SnVYGswZE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:date:in-reply-to:x-ip:references :user-agent:x-http-useragent:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=KfcUX6u7HhDogL+K3BDchsl/04OR9gtXWcEcM6eb4XpiEJHD/nEZvrq5uAmeC0VAz0 DFVOHfU2a5bGtZ4kc2xd0Kob+zq6BdEPRu17vcjuZO7MROGEzcz04+ACwrmYDqTdZ/wm ETliEBo1VpZ7cGXTOiRoht5owJGfzCQzyh6/o= Received: by 10.229.9.149 with SMTP id l21mr3561440qcl.21.1294415831655; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 07:57:11 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.207.201 with SMTP id fz9ls2719019qab.3.p; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 07:57:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.224.60.210 with SMTP id q18mr1121101qah.6.1294415830983; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 07:57:10 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.28.69 with SMTP id l5mr1425245qac.23.1294406026465; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 05:13:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by e20g2000vbn.googlegroups.com with HTTP; Fri, 7 Jan 2011 05:13:46 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2011 05:13:46 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20110107122853.GA30364@alice.local> X-IP: 70.26.52.118 References: <20110106204534.GF27821@alice.local> <200257.69484.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20110106221107.GI27821@alice.local> <20110106223557.GJ27821@alice.local> <259280.334.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20110107122853.GA30364@alice.local> User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101227 Conkeror/0.9.2 (Debian-0.9.2+git100804-1),gzip(gfe) Message-ID: Subject: [lojban] Re: Semantic Representation of Lojban From: Zort To: lojban X-Original-Sender: eitanp32@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I just randomly discovered this: http://www.lojban.org/files/papers/lojban_= parser_paper I haven't had a chance to read it yet, but it seems very relevant. On Jan 7, 7:28=A0am, ".alyn.post." wrote: > I've realized that I'll need to look at sentences like "I promise X > [though my finger is crossed.]"[1] because of their appearing to say > "I promise X." =A0And I've gotten about that far with that particular > problem. =A0:-) > > I'm only clear on the first three steps I'll be taking to work on > this problem, and I'm roughly planning on adding bits of logic and > leftovers until I find something that appears to contradict some > step I've already taken. =A0Or, more likely, I'm not nearly so lucky > as that and reach a point where I don't understand what a Lojban > statement class is formally trying to express, and need help > translating it. > > I'm really happy you're interested in this stuff. =A0I'll be happy to > check in when I have an interesting application, a fun example, or > anything else thought provoking. =A0If you build any datasets I'd be > happy to hear about them as well. > > Happy Hacking, > > -Alan > > 1:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossed_fingers, though the cultural > =A0 =A0referent I'm making (documented in the first paragraph) is not > =A0 =A0cited! > > > > On Thu, Jan 06, 2011 at 04:49:38PM -0800, John E Clifford wrote: > > OK, cool. =A0My thought was to do the pred log first and then deal with= what is > > left over, yours is to sort out the pred log and (much of) the leftover= first > > and deal with a lot of that leftover. =A0We are both going to run into = the problem > > of overlap at some point, apparently factual sentences that are used to= express > > emotions and the opposite. =A0Until the, however, we can start with the= clearly > > marked bits of Lojban: attitudinals to express emotions, imperatives to= express > > requests, the fraught sentences with 'djica' and 'nitcu' to express/rep= ort > > needs. =A0So far, this is vocab look up and a little parsing. =A0What c= omes next in > > terms of making these classifications when they are embedded or implici= t or > > disguised? =A0And, of course, how much of this hinges on fairly complet= e word > > semantics for various preds and compounds? =A0The first part won't take= a thousand > > hours (nor probably a hundred). the next part leads you into the whirlp= ool that > > also involves the other approach, so step-wise mutual adapting, hopeful= ly always > > in an upward direction. > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: .alyn.post. > > To: lojban@googlegroups.com > > Sent: Thu, January 6, 2011 4:35:57 PM > > Subject: Re: [lojban] Semantic Representation of Lojban > > > I'd like to ellaborate a little more on this, because the link I > > provided has a low information content. =A0I need to solve problems > > like this: > > > Nonviolent Communication[1] has a four-part communication model > > called OFNR[2]. =A0In it, you state your observation, your feeling, > > your need, and (optionally) a request. > > > This turns out to be difficult, because we constantly mix > > observations and feelings, state judgements as if they were > > feelings, &c. =A0It is something that takes practice to do well. > > > I want to be able to classify a Lojban statement based on a > > constraint, like this: > > > =A0 Does statement X consist of an observation, then a feeling, then > > =A0 a need, and then optionally a request. > > > The idea being that one can type in what *seems* like an OFNR > > statement, and have the computer call you on it if it isn't. > > > The above is actually quite complex, compared to the first version > > of what I want to do, which is to have a conversation with ~20 valsi > > and a finite state machine with something like that many states, and > > use a simple version of the above classifier as to control state > > transition. =A0The classifier won't need to handle anything outside > > the scope of those ~20 valsi, save to transition to a "maybe you > > ought to write that piece you clever monkey" state. > > > I hope that demonstrates that I don't need a formal solution to the > > problem, but that I need something *like* a solution to the problem, > > and I hope that gives a better idea of the kind of thing I have in > > mind, as I'm working on and interested in this topic. > > > -Alan > > > 1:http://www.cnvc.org/ > > 2:http://en.nvcwiki.com/index.php/Four_part_model > > > On Thu, Jan 06, 2011 at 03:11:07PM -0700, .alyn.post. wrote: > > > By "playing with it," I mean specifically that I have an application > > > in mind[1] and will be doing the minimum amount of work in this > > > domain to support that application, with my goal being to develop > > > and deliver the application, rather than a formal solution to this > > > problem. > > > > The initial version of the application requires only a pathetically > > > bad approximation to this problem, and so I will be able to use the > > > result in well under a few thousand man-hours. > > > > -Alan > > > > 1:http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/kiksispehi > > > > On Thu, Jan 06, 2011 at 02:01:56PM -0800, John E Clifford wrote: > > > > As a practical matter, the first (and officially easiest -- but tim= e will > > >tell) > > > > > part would be to devise the rules for working back from Lojban surf= ace > > > > structures to the underlying predicate logic ones: all logical conn= ectives > > > > between sentences, all quantifiers and negations in appropriate pre= nex > > >position > > > > > (so the structure that immediate follows -- a sentence of some sort= -- will > > >be > > > > > exactly the intended scope). =A0You might also start a bunch of mea= ning > > > > postulates, that relate one concept to others (I suppose, at least = initially. > > > > > that the metalanguage will be English) and throw in the laws of log= ic just in > > > > > case (but they are probably going to be needed early on anyhow, to = sort out > > > > issues in prenectification). =A0That ought to be worth a few thousa= nd > > >man-hours. > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > From: .alyn.post. > > > > To: lojban@googlegroups.com > > > > Sent: Thu, January 6, 2011 2:45:34 PM > > > > Subject: [lojban] Semantic Representation of Lojban > > > > > [I've moved this to it's own thread for higher visibility of the > > > > topic.] > > > > > On Thu, Jan 06, 2011 at 12:38:23PM -0800, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > > > > > Well, to a certain extent you're right, but if you choose the > > > > > > right kind of semantic representation, you can do things like > > > > > > proving that two different strings of Lojban have the same > > > > > > meaning. Correct me if I'm wrong, but at the moment no machine > > > > > > grammar of Lojban represents the fact that =93mi viska do=94 is > > > > > > equivalent to =93do se viska mi=94. > > > > > > Right, very true. =A0People have started playing with that. > > > > > I've started playing with it, certainly. =A0Enough to where I'm > > > > considering flying out to Penguicon to brainstorm and talk about > > > > it with other Lojbanists. > > > > > If others of you are working on it and are able and interested in > > > > meeting about it, will you speak up? > > > > > -Alan > > > > -- > > > > .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi > > > > > -- > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google = Groups > > > > "lojban" group. > > > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > > > > -- > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google = Groups > > >"lojban" group. > > > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > >lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > > > For more options, visit this group at > > >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > > > -- > > > .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi > > > -- > > .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps > > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@google= groups.com. > > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/loj= ban?hl=3Den. > > -- > .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. 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