From lojban+bncCLr6ktCfBBDSiJ3pBBoE5b_OGA@googlegroups.com Fri Jan 07 08:50:43 2011 Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PbFWP-0005wy-DB; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 08:50:43 -0800 Received: by yxn35 with SMTP id 35sf16270293yxn.16 for ; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 08:50:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:date:from:to :subject:message-id:mail-followup-to:references:mime-version :in-reply-to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-disposition:content-transfer-encoding; bh=cMpHQNCoiZd0YM8UNTqXVOadCmqP/+SPwXMLyPeXiqs=; b=LDc7Mj4c7+UoigZNRHRMxuNSiKbYRVWQcZs10qJaRu8yyWuZ0EsmGE5p3rlGAvt2Dj cEJWI6hKCUTclsQzRT0QR1X2O9F3TowqsKR2EHhT/aPiGSNsRqQ6kDkoA2HDFTuIc3zD u4lKUwEuRAlgCIWKfMymPZE2msiCWE5goZiok= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id :mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-disposition:content-transfer-encoding; b=WF8B1eaIAT3ZDi7bLWQx/EFhMb4UXf0n6vgXZ5h94aSQhvNftVt78OCGdf+8jRME5M B2N31mzzaMx+JzjOTtGez8n4anFZu3tSPSmje748hMDkEttv1ABUixjLCyxXxy8/cXSh oxsewRVgAh89vRBc4xpkEfowuFganq98kSa/g= Received: by 10.151.135.12 with SMTP id m12mr1867919ybn.30.1294419026725; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 08:50:26 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.100.26.21 with SMTP id 21ls3536863anz.2.p; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 08:50:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.31.11 with SMTP id e11mr4093330ane.42.1294419026040; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 08:50:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.31.11 with SMTP id e11mr4093329ane.42.1294419026022; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 08:50:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yw0-f44.google.com (mail-yw0-f44.google.com [209.85.213.44]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id c18si10735045anc.6.2011.01.07.08.50.25 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 07 Jan 2011 08:50:25 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 209.85.213.44 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of alanpost@sunflowerriver.org) client-ip=209.85.213.44; Received: by mail-yw0-f44.google.com with SMTP id 9so7699504ywk.31 for ; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 08:50:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.146.86.18 with SMTP id j18mr33744564yab.7.1294419025659; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 08:50:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunflowerriver.org (c-68-35-167-179.hsd1.nm.comcast.net [68.35.167.179]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id x29sm15439155yhc.46.2011.01.07.08.50.22 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 07 Jan 2011 08:50:24 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2011 09:50:19 -0700 From: ".alyn.post." To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Semantic Representation of Lojban Message-ID: <20110107165019.GA30739@alice.local> Mail-Followup-To: lojban@googlegroups.com References: <20110106204534.GF27821@alice.local> <200257.69484.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20110106221107.GI27821@alice.local> <20110106223557.GJ27821@alice.local> <259280.334.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20110107122853.GA30364@alice.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 209.85.213.44 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of alanpost@sunflowerriver.org) smtp.mail=alanpost@sunflowerriver.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Indeed, I was waiting and hoping someone would chime in and say I'm walking a well worn path, because it feels like I *should* be doing so. That whole directory is actually a little treasure trove, thank you for bringing it to my attention. I'm reminded also of Oren's post on a spreadsheet he created: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/6422d820aa0eedf2 It seems the pieces are more-or-less in place, and are either unintegrated or non-maintained, but that everything is essentially there. -Alan On Fri, Jan 07, 2011 at 05:13:46AM -0800, Zort wrote: > I just randomly discovered this: http://www.lojban.org/files/papers/lojba= n_parser_paper > I haven't had a chance to read it yet, but it seems very relevant. >=20 > On Jan 7, 7:28=A0am, ".alyn.post." > wrote: > > I've realized that I'll need to look at sentences like "I promise X > > [though my finger is crossed.]"[1] because of their appearing to say > > "I promise X." =A0And I've gotten about that far with that particular > > problem. =A0:-) > > > > I'm only clear on the first three steps I'll be taking to work on > > this problem, and I'm roughly planning on adding bits of logic and > > leftovers until I find something that appears to contradict some > > step I've already taken. =A0Or, more likely, I'm not nearly so lucky > > as that and reach a point where I don't understand what a Lojban > > statement class is formally trying to express, and need help > > translating it. > > > > I'm really happy you're interested in this stuff. =A0I'll be happy to > > check in when I have an interesting application, a fun example, or > > anything else thought provoking. =A0If you build any datasets I'd be > > happy to hear about them as well. > > > > Happy Hacking, > > > > -Alan > > > > 1:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossed_fingers, though the cultural > > =A0 =A0referent I'm making (documented in the first paragraph) is not > > =A0 =A0cited! > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 06, 2011 at 04:49:38PM -0800, John E Clifford wrote: > > > OK, cool. =A0My thought was to do the pred log first and then deal wi= th what is > > > left over, yours is to sort out the pred log and (much of) the leftov= er first > > > and deal with a lot of that leftover. =A0We are both going to run int= o the problem > > > of overlap at some point, apparently factual sentences that are used = to express > > > emotions and the opposite. =A0Until the, however, we can start with t= he clearly > > > marked bits of Lojban: attitudinals to express emotions, imperatives = to express > > > requests, the fraught sentences with 'djica' and 'nitcu' to express/r= eport > > > needs. =A0So far, this is vocab look up and a little parsing. =A0What= comes next in > > > terms of making these classifications when they are embedded or impli= cit or > > > disguised? =A0And, of course, how much of this hinges on fairly compl= ete word > > > semantics for various preds and compounds? =A0The first part won't ta= ke a thousand > > > hours (nor probably a hundred). the next part leads you into the whir= lpool that > > > also involves the other approach, so step-wise mutual adapting, hopef= ully always > > > in an upward direction. > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: .alyn.post. > > > To: lojban@googlegroups.com > > > Sent: Thu, January 6, 2011 4:35:57 PM > > > Subject: Re: [lojban] Semantic Representation of Lojban > > > > > I'd like to ellaborate a little more on this, because the link I > > > provided has a low information content. =A0I need to solve problems > > > like this: > > > > > Nonviolent Communication[1] has a four-part communication model > > > called OFNR[2]. =A0In it, you state your observation, your feeling, > > > your need, and (optionally) a request. > > > > > This turns out to be difficult, because we constantly mix > > > observations and feelings, state judgements as if they were > > > feelings, &c. =A0It is something that takes practice to do well. > > > > > I want to be able to classify a Lojban statement based on a > > > constraint, like this: > > > > > =A0 Does statement X consist of an observation, then a feeling, then > > > =A0 a need, and then optionally a request. > > > > > The idea being that one can type in what *seems* like an OFNR > > > statement, and have the computer call you on it if it isn't. > > > > > The above is actually quite complex, compared to the first version > > > of what I want to do, which is to have a conversation with ~20 valsi > > > and a finite state machine with something like that many states, and > > > use a simple version of the above classifier as to control state > > > transition. =A0The classifier won't need to handle anything outside > > > the scope of those ~20 valsi, save to transition to a "maybe you > > > ought to write that piece you clever monkey" state. > > > > > I hope that demonstrates that I don't need a formal solution to the > > > problem, but that I need something *like* a solution to the problem, > > > and I hope that gives a better idea of the kind of thing I have in > > > mind, as I'm working on and interested in this topic. > > > > > -Alan > > > > > 1:http://www.cnvc.org/ > > > 2:http://en.nvcwiki.com/index.php/Four_part_model > > > > > On Thu, Jan 06, 2011 at 03:11:07PM -0700, .alyn.post. wrote: > > > > By "playing with it," I mean specifically that I have an applicatio= n > > > > in mind[1] and will be doing the minimum amount of work in this > > > > domain to support that application, with my goal being to develop > > > > and deliver the application, rather than a formal solution to this > > > > problem. > > > > > > The initial version of the application requires only a pathetically > > > > bad approximation to this problem, and so I will be able to use the > > > > result in well under a few thousand man-hours. > > > > > > -Alan > > > > > > 1:http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/kiksispehi > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 06, 2011 at 02:01:56PM -0800, John E Clifford wrote: > > > > > As a practical matter, the first (and officially easiest -- but t= ime will > > > >tell) > > > > > > > part would be to devise the rules for working back from Lojban su= rface > > > > > structures to the underlying predicate logic ones: all logical co= nnectives > > > > > between sentences, all quantifiers and negations in appropriate p= renex > > > >position > > > > > > > (so the structure that immediate follows -- a sentence of some so= rt -- will > > > >be > > > > > > > exactly the intended scope). =A0You might also start a bunch of m= eaning > > > > > postulates, that relate one concept to others (I suppose, at leas= t initially. > > > > > > > that the metalanguage will be English) and throw in the laws of l= ogic just in > > > > > > > case (but they are probably going to be needed early on anyhow, t= o sort out > > > > > issues in prenectification). =A0That ought to be worth a few thou= sand > > > >man-hours. > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > > From: .alyn.post. > > > > > To: lojban@googlegroups.com > > > > > Sent: Thu, January 6, 2011 2:45:34 PM > > > > > Subject: [lojban] Semantic Representation of Lojban > > > > > > > [I've moved this to it's own thread for higher visibility of the > > > > > topic.] > > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 06, 2011 at 12:38:23PM -0800, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > > > > > > Well, to a certain extent you're right, but if you choose the > > > > > > > right kind of semantic representation, you can do things like > > > > > > > proving that two different strings of Lojban have the same > > > > > > > meaning. Correct me if I'm wrong, but at the moment no machin= e > > > > > > > grammar of Lojban represents the fact that =93mi viska do=94 = is > > > > > > > equivalent to =93do se viska mi=94. > > > > > > > > Right, very true. =A0People have started playing with that. > > > > > > > I've started playing with it, certainly. =A0Enough to where I'm > > > > > considering flying out to Penguicon to brainstorm and talk about > > > > > it with other Lojbanists. > > > > > > > If others of you are working on it and are able and interested in > > > > > meeting about it, will you speak up? > > > > > > > -Alan > > > > > -- > > > > > .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi > > > > > > > -- > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Googl= e Groups > > > > > "lojban" group. > > > > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > > >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > > > > > > -- > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Googl= e Groups > > > >"lojban" group. > > > > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > >lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > > > > > -- > > > > .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi > > > > > -- > > > .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi > > > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gr= oups > > > "lojban" group. > > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > > For more options, visit this group at > > >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gr= oups "lojban" group. > > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@goog= legroups.com. > > > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/l= ojban?hl=3Den. > > > > -- > > .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an?hl=3Den. >=20 --=20 .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.