From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhCpvZ7pBBoE5-R-bw@googlegroups.com Fri Jan 07 15:16:10 2011 Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PbLXP-0003ed-OM; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 15:16:09 -0800 Received: by yxn35 with SMTP id 35sf16506066yxn.16 for ; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 15:15:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=6YIF1bJJZdbbk7NG+zLDLcSRcd40zhxFK8XZaQ5HtZw=; b=ENTq9Zw3mzRksNtq2NS+KuM9G9j4biOyif3Pz5kHs5txFD35oY9hVcd9ZzXNUy/dqD 49laU+OKQll5vcKNexhLyWQPWRqCvTgx/wg6sLqHmDkkoXRlC6SLAuj8N3iN7N4qNHUV UKw6q8o/GKDXIYDnSguMVByGQjCCoWqBkttM8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=u1uFfy+fpBqRw5dvSEJy+e9Tf1jy9q2xDWPl28VPxDUylw2VACCRkWL/TJZOd4veBc sM/lmHLRmU115x1pX8UItUn83J8Cvfm7tGBFSBQcS5WzSp6zTSC6E12SYcVmTChP05wb uHKaHNN6wy5eqI9MtxgANQsXjGpHX7GnZRrG4= Received: by 10.236.103.1 with SMTP id e1mr968021yhg.11.1294442153494; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 15:15:53 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.141.220 with SMTP id n28ls952326ibu.0.p; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 15:15:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.20.68 with SMTP id e4mr10006670ibb.1.1294442152946; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 15:15:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.20.68 with SMTP id e4mr10006669ibb.1.1294442152910; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 15:15:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iy0-f174.google.com (mail-iy0-f174.google.com [209.85.210.174]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id cu19si5862449ibb.5.2011.01.07.15.15.51; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 15:15:51 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.174 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.210.174; Received: by mail-iy0-f174.google.com with SMTP id 12so16206732iyi.19 for ; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 15:15:51 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.17.141 with SMTP id s13mr9919975iba.168.1294442151807; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 15:15:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.199.140 with HTTP; Fri, 7 Jan 2011 15:15:51 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <9114501.161.1294150198377.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqhy19> <7c0687a1-deba-495a-9760-95d1d0649423@t8g2000prh.googlegroups.com> <20110105165231.GK17534@digitalkingdom.org> <20110105220532.GN17534@digitalkingdom.org> <673286.9022.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2011 16:15:51 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Lojban is *NOT* broken! Stop saying that! (was Re: [lojban] Re: Vote for the Future Global Language) From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.174 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000325574bc6a40b8b049949ccef --000325574bc6a40b8b049949ccef Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 3:59 PM, Ivo Doko wrote: > On 7 January 2011 23:33, Jonathan Jones wrote: > >> The question is the same regardless of emphasis. >> > > No, it isn't. > > > >> Also, in the real world, the question is never an XOR question, so saying >> "CREAM or SUGAR" does not suggest that the customer can have only one or the >> other, but merely that the customer is hard of hearing. >> > > You either don't know English well enough I have at least a college level understanding of the English language, I can understand all but the thickest accents (thanks to having worked either with or for Egyptian, Bosnian, Chinese, etc. immigrants), and know the meaning of probably every word of three syllables or less, and a large portion of those words with four or more. I have been speaking English for 29 years and am even able to differentiate various dialects. > or are (consciously or subconsciously) stubbornly refusing to acknowledge > the impact different emphasis has on the meaning of a sentence in English > language. I am sorry, but there is nothing else I can conclude because the > example I have provided of two different emphases of the same sentence do > *not* have the same meaning. > Sentences in general are up to context. I am speaking specifically about the sentence 'Do you want cream or sugar?', because, at least with English, sweeping generalizations about the effects of differing emphasis are always wrong. If I put the emPHAsis on the worng syLAbble in this sentence, does it's meaning change? No. "Do you WANT cream or sugar?" vs. "Do you want CREAM or SUGAR?" would not be interpreted as having different meanings, because in the context of cream and sugar for coffee, no one would ever suggest that the customer may have one or the other but not both or neither. It would be interpreted as "This customer is hard of hearing, so I should speak louder so as to make sure he hears me correctly", which may be considered to be rude by the customer (if, for example, he isn't hard of hearing), but would not be considered an XOR question, due to contextual factors, including culture. > Also, in questions like "do you want A or B?", 'or' is usually neither OR > nor XOR because the required answer is not simply "yes" or "no", which it > would be if the 'or' in the question was OR or XOR. > And with one fell swoop you just contradicted everything you have said prior, merely by pointing out that the English word "or" has nothing to do with logic. -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --000325574bc6a40b8b049949ccef Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 3:59 PM, Ivo Doko <ivo.= doko@gmail.com> wrote:
On 7 January 2011 23:33, Jonathan Jones <e= yeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
The question is the same regardless of emphasis.

No, it isn't.

=A0
Also, in the real world, the question is never an XOR question, so saying &= quot;CREAM or SUGAR" does not suggest that the customer can have only = one or the other, but merely that the customer is hard of hearing.

You either don't know English well = enough

I have at least a college level understanding = of the English language, I can understand all but the thickest accents (thanks to having worked=20 either with or for Egyptian, Bosnian, Chinese, etc. immigrants), and=20 know the meaning of probably every word of three syllables or less, and a large portion of those words with four or more. I have been speaking=20 English for 29 years and am even able to differentiate various dialects.=A0
or are = (consciously or subconsciously) stubbornly refusing to acknowledge the impa= ct different emphasis has on the meaning of a sentence in English language.= I am sorry, but there is nothing else I can conclude because the example I= have provided of two different emphases of the same sentence do *not* have= the same meaning.

Sentences in general are up to context. I am speaking= specifically about the sentence 'Do you want cream or sugar?', bec= ause, at least with English, sweeping generalizations about the effects of = differing emphasis are always wrong.

If I put the emPHAsis on the worng syLAbble in this sentence, does it&#= 39;s meaning change? No.

"Do you WANT cream or sugar?" vs.= "Do you want CREAM or SUGAR?" would not be interpreted as having= different meanings, because in the context of cream and sugar for coffee, = no one would ever suggest that the customer may have one or the other but n= ot both or neither. It would be interpreted as "This customer is hard = of hearing, so I should speak louder so as to make sure he hears me correct= ly", which may be considered to be rude by the customer (if, for examp= le, he isn't hard of hearing), but would not be considered an XOR quest= ion, due to contextual factors, including culture.
=A0
Also, in questions like "do you want A or B?", 'or' is us= ually neither OR nor XOR because the required answer is not simply "ye= s" or "no", which it would be if the 'or' in the que= stion was OR or XOR.

And with one fell swoop you just contradicted everyt= hing you have said prior, merely by pointing out that the English word &quo= t;or" has nothing to do with logic.

--
mu'= ;o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk= . mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D= )

--
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To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
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