From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBCUw57pBBoEGr_GEw@googlegroups.com Fri Jan 07 15:28:38 2011 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PbLjS-00037o-FK; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 15:28:37 -0800 Received: by gwj17 with SMTP id 17sf16674534gwj.16 for ; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 15:28:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=l1TGMWdNU4d5Jb5NJ3tWRlrg/GW7+NbgpatfPgL9VCE=; b=ZSFsIaj/8jMvLi5gY7IZ8ArnJk9nBiY4N1yuZ6Fzi4sf5DvIxmPgU9rtglk6FB5+CN 8zIzj2MWY4k8/+bYZ13wmDf0XDKYIWfMSQEiC+brytfA5JomSV/Hqc4whB3bScW5S2Bu BOS+BErHYyGErJepylkj1J+zlGPUniugC7Dvk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=Lk3eSm0/k5z41G/s/fjlsS7QwlMm/R5wkvaHDBx/c2m8wgxoYXy18tZfZ/NQO8hhI2 k9H4aR5QilenwZyQn1NvV7Zb0MX3RNomUj4GzfgAqEVWoB79ezq3+H4h1NfX/fXcs07h izeJyeHZqqHtb0DvJWYJ8aeKSbyR5+G1/t3hA= Received: by 10.151.63.17 with SMTP id q17mr1751528ybk.57.1294442900224; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 15:28:20 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.76.165 with SMTP id c37ls12972527ibk.3.p; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 15:28:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.16.131 with SMTP id o3mr4077485iba.18.1294442899493; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 15:28:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.16.131 with SMTP id o3mr4077484iba.18.1294442899441; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 15:28:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iy0-f178.google.com (mail-iy0-f178.google.com [209.85.210.178]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id d9si5866424ibq.3.2011.01.07.15.28.18; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 15:28:18 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.178 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.210.178; Received: by iyi42 with SMTP id 42so19882013iyi.37 for ; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 15:28:18 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.35.131 with SMTP id p3mr25739059ibd.87.1294442898285; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 15:28:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.14.197 with HTTP; Fri, 7 Jan 2011 15:28:18 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <9114501.161.1294150198377.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqhy19> <7c0687a1-deba-495a-9760-95d1d0649423@t8g2000prh.googlegroups.com> <20110105165231.GK17534@digitalkingdom.org> <20110105220532.GN17534@digitalkingdom.org> <673286.9022.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2011 18:28:18 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Lojban is *NOT* broken! Stop saying that! (was Re: [lojban] Re: Vote for the Future Global Language) From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.178 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00032557a2ba226990049949f992 --00032557a2ba226990049949f992 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 what he's saying is: "do you WANT cream or sugar" is coming out more like "hey buddy, your cup is over there, do you even WANT anything in it?" while "do you want CREAM or SUGAR" comes out as "would you rather have cream, or would you rather have sugar", which sounds more like an xor to me. Maybe a different example: A parent sees a kid doing the same bad thing for the 19th time and says "How many times do I have to tell you?!! Do you WANT to lose the tv or video games?!". (the sentence we're looking at is the second one). The parent is asking if the child wants for the event of (them losing tv or video game privileges) to come true. {xu do djica lo nu na curmi lo nu do te skina kei ju'e lo nu do kelci} VS Same scenario. "I told you last time that if you did it again, you WILL be punished. Do you want to lose the TV or VIDEO-GAMES?". This time, the emphasis tells the child that they will be losing something and that they are being asked to give an answer as to which of the two they want to lose (or rather, least want to surrender). {xu do djica lo nu na curmi lo nu do te skina kei kei ku ji lo nu na curmi lo nu do kelci}. .... now stop being stubborn ;) On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 6:15 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 3:59 PM, Ivo Doko wrote: > >> On 7 January 2011 23:33, Jonathan Jones wrote: >> >>> The question is the same regardless of emphasis. >>> >> >> No, it isn't. >> >> >> >>> Also, in the real world, the question is never an XOR question, so saying >>> "CREAM or SUGAR" does not suggest that the customer can have only one or the >>> other, but merely that the customer is hard of hearing. >>> >> >> You either don't know English well enough > > > I have at least a college level understanding of the English language, I > can understand all but the thickest accents (thanks to having worked either > with or for Egyptian, Bosnian, Chinese, etc. immigrants), and know the > meaning of probably every word of three syllables or less, and a large > portion of those words with four or more. I have been speaking English for > 29 years and am even able to differentiate various dialects. > > >> or are (consciously or subconsciously) stubbornly refusing to acknowledge >> the impact different emphasis has on the meaning of a sentence in English >> language. I am sorry, but there is nothing else I can conclude because the >> example I have provided of two different emphases of the same sentence do >> *not* have the same meaning. >> > > Sentences in general are up to context. I am speaking specifically about > the sentence 'Do you want cream or sugar?', because, at least with English, > sweeping generalizations about the effects of differing emphasis are always > wrong. > > If I put the emPHAsis on the worng syLAbble in this sentence, does it's > meaning change? No. > > "Do you WANT cream or sugar?" vs. "Do you want CREAM or SUGAR?" would not > be interpreted as having different meanings, because in the context of cream > and sugar for coffee, no one would ever suggest that the customer may have > one or the other but not both or neither. It would be interpreted as "This > customer is hard of hearing, so I should speak louder so as to make sure he > hears me correctly", which may be considered to be rude by the customer (if, > for example, he isn't hard of hearing), but would not be considered an XOR > question, due to contextual factors, including culture. > > >> Also, in questions like "do you want A or B?", 'or' is usually neither OR >> nor XOR because the required answer is not simply "yes" or "no", which it >> would be if the 'or' in the question was OR or XOR. >> > > And with one fell swoop you just contradicted everything you have said > prior, merely by pointing out that the English word "or" has nothing to do > with logic. > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu > do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --00032557a2ba226990049949f992 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable what he's saying is:
"do you WANT cream or sugar" is comi= ng out more like "hey buddy, your cup is over there, do you even WANT = anything in it?"
while "do you want CREAM or SUGAR"= ; comes out as "would you rather have cream, or would you rather have = sugar", which sounds more like an xor to me.

Maybe a different example: =A0

A parent sees a kid doing the same bad thing for the 19th time and says &q= uot;How many times do I have to tell you?!! =A0Do you WANT to lose the tv o= r video games?!". =A0(the sentence we're looking at is the second = one). =A0The parent is asking if the child wants for the event of (them los= ing tv or video game=A0privileges) to come true. =A0{xu do djica lo nu na c= urmi lo nu do te skina kei ju'e lo nu do kelci}

VS

Same scenario. =A0"I t= old you last time that if you did it again, you WILL be punished. =A0Do you= want to lose the TV or VIDEO-GAMES?". =A0This time, the emphasis tell= s the child that they will be losing something and that they are being aske= d to give an answer as to which of the two they want to lose (or rather, le= ast want to surrender). {xu do djica lo nu na curmi lo nu do te skina kei k= ei ku ji lo nu na curmi lo nu do kelci}.

....

now stop being stubborn ;= )


On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 6:15 = PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 3:59 PM, Ivo Doko <ivo.doko@gmail.com> wrote:
On 7 January 2011 23:33, Jonathan Jones <e= yeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
The question is the same regardless of emphasis.

No, it isn't.

=A0
Also, in the real world, the question is never an XOR question, so saying &= quot;CREAM or SUGAR" does not suggest that the customer can have only = one or the other, but merely that the customer is hard of hearing.

You either don't know English well = enough

I have at least a college level understa= nding of the English language, I can understand all but the thickest accents (thanks to having worked=20 either with or for Egyptian, Bosnian, Chinese, etc. immigrants), and=20 know the meaning of probably every word of three syllables or less, and a large portion of those words with four or more. I have been speaking=20 English for 29 years and am even able to differentiate various dialects.=A0
or are (consciously or subconsciously) stubbornly refusing to acknowledge t= he impact different emphasis has on the meaning of a sentence in English la= nguage. I am sorry, but there is nothing else I can conclude because the ex= ample I have provided of two different emphases of the same sentence do *no= t* have the same meaning.

Sentences in general are up to context. I am sp= eaking specifically about the sentence 'Do you want cream or sugar?'= ;, because, at least with English, sweeping generalizations about the effec= ts of differing emphasis are always wrong.

If I put the emPHAsis on the worng syLAbble in this sentence, does it&#= 39;s meaning change? No.

"Do you WANT cream or sugar?" vs.= "Do you want CREAM or SUGAR?" would not be interpreted as having= different meanings, because in the context of cream and sugar for coffee, = no one would ever suggest that the customer may have one or the other but n= ot both or neither. It would be interpreted as "This customer is hard = of hearing, so I should speak louder so as to make sure he hears me correct= ly", which may be considered to be rude by the customer (if, for examp= le, he isn't hard of hearing), but would not be considered an XOR quest= ion, due to contextual factors, including culture.
=A0
Also, in questions like "do you want A or B?", 'or' is us= ually neither OR nor XOR because the required answer is not simply "ye= s" or "no", which it would be if the 'or' in the que= stion was OR or XOR.

And with one fell swoop you just contradicted = everything you have said prior, merely by pointing out that the English wor= d "or" has nothing to do with logic.


--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk= . mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D= )

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