From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhDpxp7pBBoE5-nc-A@googlegroups.com Fri Jan 07 15:36:24 2011 Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PbLr1-0003Hx-LC; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 15:36:24 -0800 Received: by yxn35 with SMTP id 35sf16513060yxn.16 for ; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 15:36:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=IL1WvX9xiGuQryda8wLWc6MwDsYNP12Jg6NSYUNrri0=; b=ILU+Jxc3cqhfDLtvJTqRsJYTwdN82rXWUI4lm6yTQrnRjiwlZI9oAdivVJu5Rzx+oZ 6YXx1pJJS524C5fiig5TimGwIWHu+DgVVhJfG5Cnr6pB7cg+VneLRYuGIKl3Y5btcSh1 zh++sGdKUrGdKKA4DQQHw9eQXZtIZMWC7KGMA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=KNPWwoVRq/b6GwyyGJv7QhPW+9FetoY5Ol0/GIJz0js/WwhmUsbHBPHaZZjdungks2 2IuUXoaKYZ2UINvmweG7y4NkTbgFe738fu4LvhTV4ZUpLyE2SK3P49IL2sawXV4OP2rt 6RzY5u35JtQa4PNdxnR9QkAA89qEdPVrp/MCw= Received: by 10.151.116.16 with SMTP id t16mr410758ybm.22.1294443369950; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 15:36:09 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.76.165 with SMTP id c37ls12975667ibk.3.p; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 15:36:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.11.193 with SMTP id u1mr10052765ibu.7.1294443369208; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 15:36:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.11.193 with SMTP id u1mr10052763ibu.7.1294443369135; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 15:36:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iw0-f170.google.com (mail-iw0-f170.google.com [209.85.214.170]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d9si5868015ibq.3.2011.01.07.15.36.08 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 07 Jan 2011 15:36:08 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.170 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.170; Received: by iwn6 with SMTP id 6so23904628iwn.15 for ; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 15:36:08 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.35.139 with SMTP id p11mr26188674ibd.143.1294443367983; Fri, 07 Jan 2011 15:36:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.199.140 with HTTP; Fri, 7 Jan 2011 15:36:07 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <9114501.161.1294150198377.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqhy19> <7c0687a1-deba-495a-9760-95d1d0649423@t8g2000prh.googlegroups.com> <20110105165231.GK17534@digitalkingdom.org> <20110105220532.GN17534@digitalkingdom.org> <673286.9022.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2011 16:36:07 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Lojban is *NOT* broken! Stop saying that! (was Re: [lojban] Re: Vote for the Future Global Language) From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.170 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00221534c913216b1704994a156e --00221534c913216b1704994a156e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 4:28 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > what he's saying is: > "do you WANT cream or sugar" is coming out more like "hey buddy, your cup > is over there, do you even WANT anything in it?" > while "do you want CREAM or SUGAR" comes out as "would you rather have > cream, or would you rather have sugar", which sounds more like an xor to me. > A waiter would never mean the second, and only an aggravated waiter would mean the first. A waiter saying "Do you want cream or sugar?", regardless of emphasis, always means "Do you want cream? Do you want sugar?". > Maybe a different example: > > A parent sees a kid doing the same bad thing for the 19th time and says > "How many times do I have to tell you?!! Do you WANT to lose the tv or > video games?!". (the sentence we're looking at is the second one). The > parent is asking if the child wants for the event of (them losing tv or > video game privileges) to come true. {xu do djica lo nu na curmi lo nu do > te skina kei ju'e lo nu do kelci} > > VS > > Same scenario. "I told you last time that if you did it again, you WILL be > punished. Do you want to lose the TV or VIDEO-GAMES?". This time, the > emphasis tells the child that they will be losing something and that they > are being asked to give an answer as to which of the two they want to lose > (or rather, least want to surrender). {xu do djica lo nu na curmi lo nu do > te skina kei kei ku ji lo nu na curmi lo nu do kelci}. > > .... > > now stop being stubborn ;) > As I said, I was speaking of that specific scenario. Using a different example doesn't work, because then it's no longer about that specific scenario. :P Also, being stubborn is an inherent quality in my makeup. Like, genetic. I got it from my mother, who is at /least/ as stubborn as me. That's like telling me to stop being 6'3". (zo'o) > On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 6:15 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > >> On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 3:59 PM, Ivo Doko wrote: >> >>> On 7 January 2011 23:33, Jonathan Jones wrote: >>> >>>> The question is the same regardless of emphasis. >>>> >>> >>> No, it isn't. >>> >>> >>> >>>> Also, in the real world, the question is never an XOR question, so >>>> saying "CREAM or SUGAR" does not suggest that the customer can have only one >>>> or the other, but merely that the customer is hard of hearing. >>>> >>> >>> You either don't know English well enough >> >> >> I have at least a college level understanding of the English language, I >> can understand all but the thickest accents (thanks to having worked either >> with or for Egyptian, Bosnian, Chinese, etc. immigrants), and know the >> meaning of probably every word of three syllables or less, and a large >> portion of those words with four or more. I have been speaking English for >> 29 years and am even able to differentiate various dialects. >> >> >>> or are (consciously or subconsciously) stubbornly refusing to acknowledge >>> the impact different emphasis has on the meaning of a sentence in English >>> language. I am sorry, but there is nothing else I can conclude because the >>> example I have provided of two different emphases of the same sentence do >>> *not* have the same meaning. >>> >> >> Sentences in general are up to context. I am speaking specifically about >> the sentence 'Do you want cream or sugar?', because, at least with English, >> sweeping generalizations about the effects of differing emphasis are always >> wrong. >> >> If I put the emPHAsis on the worng syLAbble in this sentence, does it's >> meaning change? No. >> >> "Do you WANT cream or sugar?" vs. "Do you want CREAM or SUGAR?" would not >> be interpreted as having different meanings, because in the context of cream >> and sugar for coffee, no one would ever suggest that the customer may have >> one or the other but not both or neither. It would be interpreted as "This >> customer is hard of hearing, so I should speak louder so as to make sure he >> hears me correctly", which may be considered to be rude by the customer (if, >> for example, he isn't hard of hearing), but would not be considered an XOR >> question, due to contextual factors, including culture. >> >> >>> Also, in questions like "do you want A or B?", 'or' is usually neither OR >>> nor XOR because the required answer is not simply "yes" or "no", which it >>> would be if the 'or' in the question was OR or XOR. >>> >> >> And with one fell swoop you just contradicted everything you have said >> prior, merely by pointing out that the English word "or" has nothing to do >> with logic. >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu >> do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --00221534c913216b1704994a156e Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 4:28 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmai= l.com> wrote:
what he's saying is:
"do you WANT cream or sugar" is comi= ng out more like "hey buddy, your cup is over there, do you even WANT = anything in it?"
while "do you want CREAM or SUGAR"= ; comes out as "would you rather have cream, or would you rather have = sugar", which sounds more like an xor to me.

A waiter would never mean the second, and only an agg= ravated waiter would mean the first. A waiter saying "Do you want crea= m or sugar?", regardless of emphasis, always means "Do you want c= ream? Do you want sugar?".
=A0
Maybe a different example: =A0

A p= arent sees a kid doing the same bad thing for the 19th time and says "= How many times do I have to tell you?!! =A0Do you WANT to lose the tv or vi= deo games?!". =A0(the sentence we're looking at is the second one)= . =A0The parent is asking if the child wants for the event of (them losing = tv or video game=A0privileges) to come true. =A0{xu do djica lo nu na curmi= lo nu do te skina kei ju'e lo nu do kelci}

VS

Same scenario. =A0"I t= old you last time that if you did it again, you WILL be punished. =A0Do you= want to lose the TV or VIDEO-GAMES?". =A0This time, the emphasis tell= s the child that they will be losing something and that they are being aske= d to give an answer as to which of the two they want to lose (or rather, le= ast want to surrender). {xu do djica lo nu na curmi lo nu do te skina kei k= ei ku ji lo nu na curmi lo nu do kelci}.

....

now stop being stubborn ;= )

As I said, I was speaking of that specific sce= nario. Using a different example doesn't work, because then it's no= longer about that specific scenario. :P

Also, being stubborn is an inherent quality in my makeup. Like, genetic= . I got it from my mother, who is at /least/ as stubborn as me. That's = like telling me to stop being 6'3". (zo'o)
=A0
On Fri, J= an 7, 2011 at 6:15 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wr= ote:
=
On Fri, Jan 7,= 2011 at 3:59 PM, Ivo Doko <ivo.doko@gmail.com> wrote:
On 7 January 2011 23:33, Jonathan Jones <e= yeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
The question is the same regardless of emphasis.

No, it isn't.

=A0
Also, in the real world, the question is never an XOR question, so saying &= quot;CREAM or SUGAR" does not suggest that the customer can have only = one or the other, but merely that the customer is hard of hearing.

You either don't know English well = enough

I have at least a college level understa= nding of the English language, I can understand all but the thickest accents (thanks to having worked=20 either with or for Egyptian, Bosnian, Chinese, etc. immigrants), and=20 know the meaning of probably every word of three syllables or less, and a large portion of those words with four or more. I have been speaking=20 English for 29 years and am even able to differentiate various dialects.=A0
or are (consciously or subconsciously) stubbornly refusing to acknowledge t= he impact different emphasis has on the meaning of a sentence in English la= nguage. I am sorry, but there is nothing else I can conclude because the ex= ample I have provided of two different emphases of the same sentence do *no= t* have the same meaning.

Sentences in general are up to context. I am sp= eaking specifically about the sentence 'Do you want cream or sugar?'= ;, because, at least with English, sweeping generalizations about the effec= ts of differing emphasis are always wrong.

If I put the emPHAsis on the worng syLAbble in this sentence, does it&#= 39;s meaning change? No.

"Do you WANT cream or sugar?" vs.= "Do you want CREAM or SUGAR?" would not be interpreted as having= different meanings, because in the context of cream and sugar for coffee, = no one would ever suggest that the customer may have one or the other but n= ot both or neither. It would be interpreted as "This customer is hard = of hearing, so I should speak louder so as to make sure he hears me correct= ly", which may be considered to be rude by the customer (if, for examp= le, he isn't hard of hearing), but would not be considered an XOR quest= ion, due to contextual factors, including culture.
=A0
Also, in questions like "do you want A or B?", 'or' is us= ually neither OR nor XOR because the required answer is not simply "ye= s" or "no", which it would be if the 'or' in the que= stion was OR or XOR.

And with one fell swoop you just contradicted = everything you have said prior, merely by pointing out that the English wor= d "or" has nothing to do with logic.


--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk= . mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D= )

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To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be = denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I= am your father. :D )

--
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To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
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