I'd leave out the 'xu' in the second one -- questions wit= hin questions are logically confusing. (but then, so are those in subordina= te clauses). This also doesn't quite work, because at least "neither"= is not an option.

From: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, January 7, 2011 5:28:18 PM
Subject: Re: Lojban is *NOT* broke= n! Stop saying that! (was Re: [lojban] Re: Vote for the Future Global Language)

what he's saying is:
"do you WANT cream or sugar" is coming out more li= ke "hey buddy, your cup is over there, do you even WANT anything in it?"
while "do you want CREAM or SUGAR" comes out as "would you rather h= ave cream, or would you rather have sugar", which sounds more like an xor t= o me.

Maybe a different example:

<= div>A parent sees a kid doing the same bad thing for the 19th time and says= "How many times do I have to tell you?!! Do you WANT to lose the tv = or video games?!". (the sentence we're looking at is the second one).= The parent is asking if the child wants for the event of (them losin= g tv or video game privileges) to come true. {xu do djica lo nu = na curmi lo nu do te skina kei ju'e lo nu do kelci}

VS

Same scenario. "I tol= d you last time that if you did it again, you WILL be punished. Do yo= u want to lose the TV or VIDEO-GAMES?". This time, the emphasis tells= the child that they will be losing something and that they are being asked= to give an answer as to which of the two they want to lose (or rather, lea= st want to surrender). {xu do djica lo nu na curmi lo nu do te skina kei ke= i ku ji lo nu na curmi lo nu do kelci}.

....

now stop being stubborn ;= )

On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 6:15 = PM, Jonathan Jones <= eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 3:59 PM, Ivo Doko <ivo.doko@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:

On 7 January 2011 23:33, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:
The question is the same regardless of emphasis.

No, it isn't.

Also, in the real world, the question is never an XOR question, so saying "= CREAM or SUGAR" does not suggest that the customer can have only one or the= other, but merely that the customer is hard of hearing.

You either don't know English well enou= gh

I have at least a college level understandin= g of the English language, I can understand all but the thickest accents (thanks to having worked=20 either with or for Egyptian, Bosnian, Chinese, etc. immigrants), and=20 know the meaning of probably every word of three syllables or less, and a large portion of those words with four or more. I have been speaking=20 English for 29 years and am even able to differentiate various dialects.
or are (consciously or subconsciously) stubbornly refusing to acknowledge t= he impact different emphasis has on the meaning of a sentence in English la= nguage. I am sorry, but there is nothing else I can conclude because the ex= ample I have provided of two different emphases of the same sentence do *no= t* have the same meaning.

Sentences in general are up to context. I am sp= eaking specifically about the sentence 'Do you want cream or sugar?', becau= se, at least with English, sweeping generalizations about the effects of di= ffering emphasis are always wrong.

If I put the emPHAsis on the worng syLAbble in this sentence, does it's= meaning change? No.

"Do you WANT cream or sugar?" vs. "Do you want = CREAM or SUGAR?" would not be interpreted as having different meanings, bec= ause in the context of cream and sugar for coffee, no one would ever sugges= t that the customer may have one or the other but not both or neither. It w= ould be interpreted as "This customer is hard of hearing, so I should speak= louder so as to make sure he hears me correctly", which may be considered = to be rude by the customer (if, for example, he isn't hard of hearing), but= would not be considered an XOR question, due to contextual factors, includ= ing culture.

Also, in questions like "do you want A or B?", 'or' is usually neither OR n= or XOR because the required answer is not simply "yes" or "no", which it wo= uld be if the 'or' in the question was OR or XOR.

And with one fell swoop you just contradicted = everything you have said prior, merely by pointing out that the English wor= d "or" has nothing to do with logic.

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi pat= fu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegro= ups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.