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Subject: Re: Lojban is *NOT* broken! Stop saying that! (was Re: [lojban] Re:
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Yes, conjunctions in natural languages are not consistent or logical.  
This is not a surprise.

I found myself musing about what the emphases would be for the two 
different meanings... Here's what I said in #jbopre:

One is ??- / ??-? / ??-?.  would you LIKE cream or SUGar in your COFfee.
The other is ???- / ?-? / ??-?.  Would you like CREAM or SUGar in your 
COFfee.

(wrong Unicode symbols for the syllables, but they're easier to see)

Don't overemphasize the long syllables, and it works.  Really.  Yes, you 
*can* ask that question in the sense of "would you like ANYTHING" in 
your coffee.

~mark

On 01/07/2011 05:52 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote:
> Agreed, but that just proves that the meaning of the English word "or" 
> isn't consistent.
>
> "cream or sugar" => OR
> "pie or ice cream" => XOR (usually)
>
> On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 3:45 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com 
> <mailto:kali9putra@yahoo.com>> wrote:
>
>     But "Do you want pie OR ice cream" almost always is XOR -- even
>     with "or", when children (regardless of age) are involved.
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     *From:* Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com <mailto:eyeonus@gmail.com>>
>     *To:* lojban@googlegroups.com <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>
>     *Sent:* Fri, January 7, 2011 4:33:33 PM
>
>     *Subject:* Re: Lojban is *NOT* broken! Stop saying that! (was Re:
>     [lojban] Re: Vote for the Future Global Language)
>
>     On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 7:51 AM, Ivo Doko <ivo.doko@gmail.com
>     <mailto:ivo.doko@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>         On 7 January 2011 02:06, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com
>         <mailto:kali9putra@yahoo.com>> wrote:
>
>             It doesn't matter what the waiter emphasized.
>
>
>         You either don't know English well enough or are just ignoring
>         the importance of emphasizing for the sake of your point.
>
>
>     The question is the same regardless of emphasis.
>
>     Also, in the real world, the question is never an XOR question, so
>     saying "CREAM or SUGAR" does not suggest that the customer can
>     have only one or the other, but merely that the customer is hard
>     of hearing.
>
>     -- 
>     mu'o mi'e .aionys
>

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html style="direction: ltr;">
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    <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
      http-equiv="Content-Type">
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  <body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
    Yes, conjunctions in natural languages are not consistent or
    logical.&nbsp; This is not a surprise.<br>
    <br>
    I found myself musing about what the emphases would be for the two
    different meanings... Here's what I said in #jbopre:<br>
    <br>
    One is &#8746;&#8746;- / &#8746;&#8746;-&#8746; / &#8746;&#8746;-&#8746;.&nbsp; would you LIKE cream or SUGar in your
    COFfee.<br>
    The other is &#8746;&#8746;&#8746;- / &#8746;-&#8746; / &#8746;&#8746;-&#8746;.&nbsp; Would you like CREAM or SUGar in
    your COFfee.<br>
    <br>
    (wrong Unicode symbols for the syllables, but they're easier to see)<br>
    <br>
    Don't overemphasize the long syllables, and it works.&nbsp; Really.&nbsp; Yes,
    you *can* ask that question in the sense of "would you like
    ANYTHING" in your coffee.<br>
    <br>
    ~mark<br>
    <br>
    On 01/07/2011 05:52 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote:
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:AANLkTikZ-w4NhvsBZYciH4NvBntEcA+h-oMhjbk5oZZ1@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">Agreed, but that just proves that the meaning of the
      English word "or" isn't consistent.<br>
      <br>
      "cream or sugar" =&gt; OR<br>
      "pie or ice cream" =&gt; XOR (usually)<br>
      <br>
      <div class="gmail_quote">
        On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 3:45 PM, John E Clifford <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a
            moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:kali9putra@yahoo.com">kali9putra@yahoo.com</a>&gt;</span>
        wrote:<br>
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt
          0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);
          padding-left: 1ex;">
          <div>
            <div style="font-family: times new roman,new
              york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">
              <div>But "Do you want pie OR ice cream" almost always is
                XOR -- even with "or", when children (regardless of age)
                are involved.<br>
              </div>
              <div style="font-family: times new roman,new
                york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br>
                <div style="font-family: times new roman,new
                  york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><font size="2"
                    face="Tahoma">
                    <div class="im">
                      <hr size="1">
                      <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b>
                      Jonathan Jones &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:eyeonus@gmail.com" target="_blank">eyeonus@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
                      <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b>
                      <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com"
                        target="_blank">lojban@googlegroups.com</a><br>
                    </div>
                    <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b>
                    Fri, January 7, 2011 4:33:33 PM
                    <div class="im"><br>
                      <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b>
                      Re: Lojban is *NOT* broken! Stop saying that! (was
                      Re: [lojban] Re: Vote for the Future Global
                      Language)<br>
                    </div>
                  </font>
                  <div>
                    <div class="h5"><br>
                      <div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at
                        7:51 AM, Ivo Doko <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a
                            moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow"
                            href="mailto:ivo.doko@gmail.com"
                            target="_blank">ivo.doko@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>
                        wrote:<br>
                        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:
                          0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid
                          rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
                          <div>
                            <div class="gmail_quote">On 7 January 2011
                              02:06, John E Clifford <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a
                                  moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow"
                                  href="mailto:kali9putra@yahoo.com"
                                  target="_blank">kali9putra@yahoo.com</a>&gt;</span>
                              wrote:<br>
                              <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;
                                border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204,
                                204); padding-left: 1ex;">
                                <div>
                                  <div style="font-family: times new
                                    roman,new york,times,serif;
                                    font-size: 12pt;">It doesn't matter
                                    what the waiter emphasized.<br>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </blockquote>
                            </div>
                            <br>
                          </div>
                          You either don't know English well enough or
                          are just ignoring the importance of
                          emphasizing for the sake of your point.</blockquote>
                      </div>
                      <br>
                      The question is the same regardless of emphasis.<br>
                      <br>
                      Also, in the real world, the question is never an
                      XOR question, so saying "CREAM or SUGAR" does not
                      suggest that the customer can have only one or the
                      other, but merely that the customer is hard of
                      hearing.<br clear="all">
                      <br>
                      -- <br>
                      mu'o mi'e .aionys<br>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

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