From lojban+bncCMqBsa7nERDg_aTpBBoEraxTcQ@googlegroups.com Sat Jan 08 20:52:01 2011 Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PbnFy-0002LD-UR; Sat, 08 Jan 2011 20:52:01 -0800 Received: by yxn35 with SMTP id 35sf17460862yxn.16 for ; Sat, 08 Jan 2011 20:51:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=ZQTlQlZy4CCsFXUFYKewwYO/v7nz0fiYjk+1OD6ahag=; b=vQOrtIUIJqyWdUMy+ewxMtZ2NdSN7J2xISvYxMdsbBs/MPpidV3uRkkI5txCmx1cQ1 1pxihqgIF0X2fT96srV9SAuo7pugiqD0CTEi99mttljfmPJRHO2iXUVLmBCIoasV+2oE oK6ZWJAKg/iNM3nx35DPBUD0fWxfVZCf4W+rA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=aRwdt4kMoEspItNo/ZmjfxHF2FiZ8GkDVhyPj2BB5h4/5pV/bVBEguBcj7uV6P8bFT CXuW1RkZqOs6TNoDx7ItMMVxzgC7BO9JT2hDqm9D/BJzhetr+PhMm+ymfkHuO4oJyw/1 wjxCcoQY34PL7MPw3Q9sJ25XqcAq0tYqPW7NY= Received: by 10.151.69.24 with SMTP id w24mr2029897ybk.60.1294548704385; Sat, 08 Jan 2011 20:51:44 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.200.3 with SMTP id eu3ls27960ibb.1.p; Sat, 08 Jan 2011 20:51:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.15.203 with SMTP id l11mr4853906iba.6.1294548702793; Sat, 08 Jan 2011 20:51:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.15.203 with SMTP id l11mr4853905iba.6.1294548702767; Sat, 08 Jan 2011 20:51:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com (mail-iy0-f169.google.com [209.85.210.169]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id d9si6233719ibq.3.2011.01.08.20.51.41; Sat, 08 Jan 2011 20:51:41 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of oges007@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.169 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.210.169; Received: by mail-iy0-f169.google.com with SMTP id 17so18199254iyj.14 for ; Sat, 08 Jan 2011 20:51:41 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.35.5 with SMTP id n5mr6651387ibd.159.1294548701638; Sat, 08 Jan 2011 20:51:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.153.199 with HTTP; Sat, 8 Jan 2011 20:51:41 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <9114501.161.1294150198377.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqhy19> <7c0687a1-deba-495a-9760-95d1d0649423@t8g2000prh.googlegroups.com> <20110105165231.GK17534@digitalkingdom.org> <20110105220532.GN17534@digitalkingdom.org> <673286.9022.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <294930.94884.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <401176.86876.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2011 15:51:41 +1100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Cake, Pie or Ice Cream? (was: Re: Lojban is *NOT* broken! Stop saying that! (was Re: [lojban] Re: Vote for the Future Global Language)) From: Ross Ogilvie To: lojban X-Original-Sender: oges007@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of oges007@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.169 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=oges007@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00032555ce968170f80499629b43 --00032555ce968170f80499629b43 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Magic words like { bu } have higher precedence than grammatical constructs. { mi nelci lo mlatu joi denpa bu } means (I think, not totally confident) "I like the cat and (thing beginning with dot)", similar to { mi nelci lo mlatu joi py } would mean "I like the cat and (thing beginning with p)". Can someone confirm this? mi'e ros mu'o On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 2:51 PM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 2:51 PM, Ian Johnson > wrote: > > {ce} is JOI, so yeah you need the {ku}. How the hell {mi broda ce brode} > > differs from {mi broda je brode} and {mi broda joi brode} is anyone's > guess > > afaik. > > > > That reminds me, actually; why does the grammar refuse: > > LE SELBRI JOI LE SELBRI > > ? Why can't JOI realize "left side is sumti, right side is sumti, so ku > is > > implied on left side"? Does the grammar not have enough lookahead, or > > something? > > > > That's exactly right. The problem is that when you say "lo gerku > joi ..." if the next thing you say is "mlatu" then you are still > within a single sumti, So you have to explicitly close off the sumti. > It's explicitly spelled out in the CLL. Now, whether it not that's > NECESSARY for understanding an utterance is a different question. I'm > reasonably certain that the next phrase after a JOI can unambiguously > determine if you are joining sumti and selbri (since you can't join > one to the other). Perhaps the main difficulty for a nonhuman would > come in a sentence like "mi nelci lo mlatu joi denpa bu" (I like cats > and the thing labelled ","), since denpa looks like a selbri until the > bu comes around. But I could be wrong, if "bu" is processed > differently. I'm not a parser kind of guy. > > --gejyspa > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --00032555ce968170f80499629b43 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Magic words like { bu } have higher precedence than grammatical constructs.=

{ mi nelci lo mlatu joi denpa bu } means (I think, not totally conf= ident) "I like the cat and (thing beginning with dot)", similar t= o { mi nelci lo mlatu joi py } would mean "I like the cat and (thing b= eginning with p)".

Can someone confirm this?

mi'e ros mu'o

On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 2:51 PM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.= com> wrote:
On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 2:51 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:
> {ce} is JOI, so yeah you need the {ku}. How the hell {mi broda ce brod= e}
> differs from {mi broda je brode} and {mi broda joi brode} is anyone= 9;s guess
> afaik.
>
> That reminds me, actually; why does the grammar refuse:
> LE SELBRI JOI LE SELBRI
> ? Why can't JOI realize "left side is sumti, right side is su= mti, so ku is
> implied on left side"? Does the grammar not have enough lookahead= , or
> something?
>

=A0 =A0That's exactly right. =A0The problem is that when you say= "lo gerku
joi ..." if the next thing you say is "mlatu" then you are s= till
within a single sumti, =A0So you have to explicitly close off the sumti. =A0It's explicitly spelled out in the CLL. =A0Now, whether it not that&= #39;s
NECESSARY for understanding an utterance is a different question. I'm reasonably certain that the next phrase after a JOI can unambiguously
determine if you are joining sumti and selbri (since you can't join
one to the other). =A0Perhaps the main difficulty for a nonhuman would
come in a sentence like "mi nelci lo mlatu joi denpa bu" (I like = cats
and the thing labelled ","), since denpa looks like a selbri unti= l the
bu comes around. =A0But I could be wrong, if "bu" is processed differently. =A0I'm not a parser kind of guy.

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa

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