From lojban+bncCIycn8S8DhCVgaXpBBoEQRSMbw@googlegroups.com Sat Jan 08 20:59:18 2011 Received: from mail-qy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PbnN1-0002R4-AV; Sat, 08 Jan 2011 20:59:18 -0800 Received: by qyk1 with SMTP id 1sf63477817qyk.16 for ; Sat, 08 Jan 2011 20:59:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=mcaU9RJDvH1chuM6AYLTAle4tGs32UKZMhXkCtWkymI=; b=t4KrqU2GYwpHd7+pt9aoV50h/M2hho/qtv+0FGiNAJ7JbYbc9EWx3TGw0njEyNFL5w Mqv7bhEvxpNfkRg5Jem/cP2SRUpToSPKm95XO5CUC3bzXzE/WluVDeKRUw9Z3LAk2RT8 upx4e/MvA4ctcoKY9A1ESJvMDbC0GQPXUsOGI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Xg2VXvdNUPgmbN7FVTvNXgtN5ELKRxtM5zUX2TypQzP29FATb/h/KLc8yYdiJJY0lE xOe9RQC6/5RAK+wR7QeKVZcqa6tULCGigJdQEOFdTBdT8DpOyR5I9htY1XqhUvhV0WEP IbLKv+6Vzmbw1hjJ1S6sqkPlC9hiv5B9T5LpA= Received: by 10.229.15.16 with SMTP id i16mr3844605qca.43.1294549141399; Sat, 08 Jan 2011 20:59:01 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.80.196 with SMTP id u4ls7477752qck.0.p; Sat, 08 Jan 2011 20:59:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.229.81.14 with SMTP id v14mr604943qck.1.1294549140650; Sat, 08 Jan 2011 20:59:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.229.81.14 with SMTP id v14mr604942qck.1.1294549140562; Sat, 08 Jan 2011 20:59:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qy0-f177.google.com (mail-qy0-f177.google.com [209.85.216.177]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id j6si5189900qcu.2.2011.01.08.20.58.59 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sat, 08 Jan 2011 20:58:59 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.177 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.177; Received: by qyk27 with SMTP id 27so18771630qyk.8 for ; Sat, 08 Jan 2011 20:58:59 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.95.81 with SMTP id c17mr23361345qcn.99.1294549139345; Sat, 08 Jan 2011 20:58:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.229.213.204 with HTTP; Sat, 8 Jan 2011 20:58:59 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <9114501.161.1294150198377.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqhy19> <7c0687a1-deba-495a-9760-95d1d0649423@t8g2000prh.googlegroups.com> <20110105165231.GK17534@digitalkingdom.org> <20110105220532.GN17534@digitalkingdom.org> <673286.9022.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <294930.94884.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <401176.86876.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2011 23:58:59 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Cake, Pie or Ice Cream? (was: Re: Lojban is *NOT* broken! Stop saying that! (was Re: [lojban] Re: Vote for the Future Global Language)) From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.177 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Incidentally, Ross, there is ABSOLUTELY no rule that says that "py" has to refer to "something beginning with p", or that "denpa bu" has to refer to something beginning with ".". You can unequivocally say "la maris goi py cu zvati lo zdani be lo pendo .i py prami zy". And that would mean that MARY loves her friend's house, not that her friend does. Specific assignments with goi take precedence over the _convention_ that letters not previously assigned refer to the last sumti beginning with that letter. --gejyspa On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 11:51 PM, Ross Ogilvie wrote: > Magic words like { bu } have higher precedence than grammatical construct= s. > > { mi nelci lo mlatu joi denpa bu } means (I think, not totally confident)= "I > like the cat and (thing beginning with dot)", similar to { mi nelci lo ml= atu > joi py } would mean "I like the cat and (thing beginning with p)". > > Can someone confirm this? > > mi'e ros mu'o > > On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 2:51 PM, Michael Turniansky > wrote: >> >> On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 2:51 PM, Ian Johnson >> wrote: >> > {ce} is JOI, so yeah you need the {ku}. How the hell {mi broda ce brod= e} >> > differs from {mi broda je brode} and {mi broda joi brode} is anyone's >> > guess >> > afaik. >> > >> > That reminds me, actually; why does the grammar refuse: >> > LE SELBRI JOI LE SELBRI >> > ? Why can't JOI realize "left side is sumti, right side is sumti, so k= u >> > is >> > implied on left side"? Does the grammar not have enough lookahead, or >> > something? >> > >> >> =A0 =A0That's exactly right. =A0The problem is that when you say "lo ger= ku >> joi ..." if the next thing you say is "mlatu" then you are still >> within a single sumti, =A0So you have to explicitly close off the sumti. >> =A0It's explicitly spelled out in the CLL. =A0Now, whether it not that's >> NECESSARY for understanding an utterance is a different question. I'm >> reasonably certain that the next phrase after a JOI can unambiguously >> determine if you are joining sumti and selbri (since you can't join >> one to the other). =A0Perhaps the main difficulty for a nonhuman would >> come in a sentence like "mi nelci lo mlatu joi denpa bu" (I like cats >> and the thing labelled ","), since denpa looks like a selbri until the >> bu comes around. =A0But I could be wrong, if "bu" is processed >> differently. =A0I'm not a parser kind of guy. >> >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.