From lojban+bncCMqBsa7nERCZjqXpBBoESH3LyQ@googlegroups.com Sat Jan 08 21:27:04 2011 Received: from mail-yi0-f61.google.com ([209.85.218.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Pbnnv-0002Hq-DY; Sat, 08 Jan 2011 21:27:04 -0800 Received: by yia27 with SMTP id 27sf12179920yia.16 for ; Sat, 08 Jan 2011 21:26:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=69cTSP+OR/tk88xwD1yZ4LKKM/hToC0Q8PdUgqZJWuE=; b=bXFyiWfU4KkxOzPdAiJ1PiVEBY9LzAgje9/UvP9TO0OAaps94ZxMoFPJSNv8E+0ZoO dJwDeOdozA1iHPpIzLfJoLjWRMa2cijZvO5Fa1BcPbBVFmlYZ0wNPGlV9sey036u3AhE RLF+4LH/ysQAyGQ+m0Euq8I9ueTdA/nejVjC8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=0QCuat+JSHbaDbSVfDvxHElSvoPO28xrROcjc7iItzdQe+UamBx979F94sQuGmOMrj EclSCfw2fw3Dd+/4Hh1qNl8tWZiykN8GO/XcDdgMkOVBk46hEnkzJj0EPBb6rHY1S/V7 dpt+Z2XSkopnEH3dR++Z/atYW5naSfX9LeSfo= Received: by 10.91.199.5 with SMTP id b5mr330360agq.14.1294550809959; Sat, 08 Jan 2011 21:26:49 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.76.165 with SMTP id c37ls82130ibk.3.p; Sat, 08 Jan 2011 21:26:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.39.73 with SMTP id f9mr2459588ibe.17.1294550783218; Sat, 08 Jan 2011 21:26:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.39.73 with SMTP id f9mr2459469ibe.17.1294550754846; Sat, 08 Jan 2011 21:25:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iw0-f173.google.com (mail-iw0-f173.google.com [209.85.214.173]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d9si6240415ibq.3.2011.01.08.21.25.53 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sat, 08 Jan 2011 21:25:53 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of oges007@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.173 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.173; Received: by iwn40 with SMTP id 40so20120061iwn.32 for ; Sat, 08 Jan 2011 21:25:53 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.11.204 with SMTP id u12mr11258563ibu.109.1294550753470; Sat, 08 Jan 2011 21:25:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.153.199 with HTTP; Sat, 8 Jan 2011 21:25:53 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <9114501.161.1294150198377.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqhy19> <7c0687a1-deba-495a-9760-95d1d0649423@t8g2000prh.googlegroups.com> <20110105165231.GK17534@digitalkingdom.org> <20110105220532.GN17534@digitalkingdom.org> <673286.9022.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <294930.94884.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <401176.86876.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2011 16:25:53 +1100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Cake, Pie or Ice Cream? (was: Re: Lojban is *NOT* broken! Stop saying that! (was Re: [lojban] Re: Vote for the Future Global Language)) From: Ross Ogilvie To: lojban X-Original-Sender: oges007@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of oges007@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.173 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=oges007@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0022152d62e5cdecb70499631595 --0022152d62e5cdecb70499631595 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Yes, certainly. "Thing referred to by ." and "thing referred to by p" then. On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 3:58 PM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > Incidentally, Ross, there is ABSOLUTELY no rule that says that "py" > has to refer to "something beginning with p", or that "denpa bu" has > to refer to something beginning with ".". You can unequivocally say > "la maris goi py cu zvati lo zdani be lo pendo .i py prami zy". And > that would mean that MARY loves her friend's house, not that her > friend does. Specific assignments with goi take precedence over the > _convention_ that letters not previously assigned refer to the last > sumti beginning with that letter. > --gejyspa > > On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 11:51 PM, Ross Ogilvie wrote: > > Magic words like { bu } have higher precedence than grammatical > constructs. > > > > { mi nelci lo mlatu joi denpa bu } means (I think, not totally confident) > "I > > like the cat and (thing beginning with dot)", similar to { mi nelci lo > mlatu > > joi py } would mean "I like the cat and (thing beginning with p)". > > > > Can someone confirm this? > > > > mi'e ros mu'o > > > > On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 2:51 PM, Michael Turniansky < > mturniansky@gmail.com> > > wrote: > >> > >> On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 2:51 PM, Ian Johnson > >> wrote: > >> > {ce} is JOI, so yeah you need the {ku}. How the hell {mi broda ce > brode} > >> > differs from {mi broda je brode} and {mi broda joi brode} is anyone's > >> > guess > >> > afaik. > >> > > >> > That reminds me, actually; why does the grammar refuse: > >> > LE SELBRI JOI LE SELBRI > >> > ? Why can't JOI realize "left side is sumti, right side is sumti, so > ku > >> > is > >> > implied on left side"? Does the grammar not have enough lookahead, or > >> > something? > >> > > >> > >> That's exactly right. The problem is that when you say "lo gerku > >> joi ..." if the next thing you say is "mlatu" then you are still > >> within a single sumti, So you have to explicitly close off the sumti. > >> It's explicitly spelled out in the CLL. Now, whether it not that's > >> NECESSARY for understanding an utterance is a different question. I'm > >> reasonably certain that the next phrase after a JOI can unambiguously > >> determine if you are joining sumti and selbri (since you can't join > >> one to the other). Perhaps the main difficulty for a nonhuman would > >> come in a sentence like "mi nelci lo mlatu joi denpa bu" (I like cats > >> and the thing labelled ","), since denpa looks like a selbri until the > >> bu comes around. But I could be wrong, if "bu" is processed > >> differently. I'm not a parser kind of guy. > >> > >> --gejyspa > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >> "lojban" group. > >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > >> For more options, visit this group at > >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > >> > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0022152d62e5cdecb70499631595 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, certainly. "Thing referred to by ." and "thing referred= to by p" then.

On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 = at 3:58 PM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
=A0Incidentally,= Ross, there is ABSOLUTELY no rule that says that "py"
has to refer to "something beginning with p", or that "denpa= bu" has
to refer to something beginning with ".". =A0 You can unequivocal= ly say
"la maris goi py cu zvati lo zdani be lo pendo .i py prami zy". = =A0 =A0And
that would mean that MARY loves her friend's house, not that her
friend does. =A0Specific assignments with goi take precedence over the
_convention_ that letters not previously assigned refer to the last
sumti beginning with that letter.
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa

On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 11:51 PM, Ross Ogilvie <oges007@gmail.com> wrote:
> Magic words like { bu } have higher precedence than grammatical constr= ucts.
>
> { mi nelci lo mlatu joi denpa bu } means (I think, not totally confide= nt) "I
> like the cat and (thing beginning with dot)", similar to { mi nel= ci lo mlatu
> joi py } would mean "I like the cat and (thing beginning with p)&= quot;.
>
> Can someone confirm this?
>
> mi'e ros mu'o
>
> On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 2:51 PM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 2:51 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > {ce} is JOI, so yeah you need the {ku}. How the hell {mi brod= a ce brode}
>> > differs from {mi broda je brode} and {mi broda joi brode} is = anyone's
>> > guess
>> > afaik.
>> >
>> > That reminds me, actually; why does the grammar refuse:
>> > LE SELBRI JOI LE SELBRI
>> > ? Why can't JOI realize "left side is sumti, right s= ide is sumti, so ku
>> > is
>> > implied on left side"? Does the grammar not have enough = lookahead, or
>> > something?
>> >
>>
>> =A0 =A0That's exactly right. =A0The problem is that when you s= ay "lo gerku
>> joi ..." if the next thing you say is "mlatu" then = you are still
>> within a single sumti, =A0So you have to explicitly close off the = sumti.
>> =A0It's explicitly spelled out in the CLL. =A0Now, whether it = not that's
>> NECESSARY for understanding an utterance is a different question. = I'm
>> reasonably certain that the next phrase after a JOI can unambiguou= sly
>> determine if you are joining sumti and selbri (since you can't= join
>> one to the other). =A0Perhaps the main difficulty for a nonhuman w= ould
>> come in a sentence like "mi nelci lo mlatu joi denpa bu"= (I like cats
>> and the thing labelled ","), since denpa looks like a se= lbri until the
>> bu comes around. =A0But I could be wrong, if "bu" is pro= cessed
>> differently. =A0I'm not a parser kind of guy.
>>
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= Groups
>> "lojban" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> lojban+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups
> "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+unsubs= cribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>

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