From lojban+bncCN673cmqFBCqvabpBBoEJ-W-jQ@googlegroups.com Sun Jan 09 03:40:41 2011 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PbtdV-0005DB-5E; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 03:40:41 -0800 Received: by gyb11 with SMTP id 11sf17389268gyb.16 for ; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 03:40:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:x-vr-score :x-authority-analysis:x-cm-score:message-id:date:from:organization :user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=pBN0ihJ88yCT/9lHhWClKV5qxtMttEg2TZmDV3OvZq4=; b=iJKeucxOvFM4J0cIe5zkQVxDslQ6m2CRHmw3gmkM+xM1+t1lBwFomWnWytojD6D4nu f3wPl+HA3M5YSpGJgczSEIIFqq8XsAvJCrRb3TkwLKXYkivcBuODS8FHVjbRE+8HUQaG GrdEhR33xq203Wwsy41XCSSIlF4TNBxWZ1MJ8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-vr-score:x-authority-analysis:x-cm-score :message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:x-accept-language :mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=K4Net/t4XlzFCX0qCBfqZnJAFmqA7jBxAMdHGuUXhmS6Ga8l+XtGUo6PSMIMrvUJMq RnVvavy5lpO7Ge/RcABlt4EweKN6y6tQQAEzPHJa4f8GkullEz7XhLSWYWTDoZ2GroXO eJOMgenGbmlD66QyRU6p/gxhWT1iZl6F9+fV4= Received: by 10.151.18.29 with SMTP id v29mr2035474ybi.9.1294573226821; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 03:40:26 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.150.197.14 with SMTP id u14ls3576590ybf.7.p; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 03:40:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.236.108.137 with SMTP id q9mr3293341yhg.17.1294573225482; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 03:40:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.236.108.137 with SMTP id q9mr3293340yhg.17.1294573225464; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 03:40:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from eastrmmtao103.cox.net (eastrmmtao103.cox.net [68.230.240.9]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 68si2644672yhl.9.2011.01.09.03.40.25; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 03:40:25 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 68.230.240.9 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of lojbab@lojban.org) client-ip=68.230.240.9; Received: from eastrmimpo01.cox.net ([68.1.16.119]) by eastrmmtao103.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.01.03.00 201-2260-125-20100507) with ESMTP id <20110109114025.FAYS18557.eastrmmtao103.cox.net@eastrmimpo01.cox.net> for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2011 06:40:25 -0500 Received: from [192.168.0.101] ([70.179.118.163]) by eastrmimpo01.cox.net with bizsmtp id tPgQ1f0023Xcbvq02PgQBZ; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 06:40:24 -0500 X-VR-Score: -100.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=K6H15zDybEznVbWvwx3O4PPp0p/D2/5TW7WmbNpAZQA= c=1 sm=1 a=hQ6Vh0px9vgA:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=7ls7RdmwX4RvLZNVULbZcg==:17 a=8YJikuA2AAAA:8 a=BKrsDn0KZCT-sauPiYAA:9 a=_hSHNshJF5nE8gBkJ5KolkNLJFkA:4 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=dxBpO5_FDU0A:10 a=7ls7RdmwX4RvLZNVULbZcg==:117 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: <4D299EA9.7030109@lojban.org> Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2011 06:40:25 -0500 From: "Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG" Organization: The Logical Language Group, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Lojban is *NOT* broken! Stop saying that! (was Re: [lojban] Re: Vote for the Future Global Language) References: <9114501.161.1294150198377.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqhy19> <7c0687a1-deba-495a-9760-95d1d0649423@t8g2000prh.googlegroups.com> <20110105165231.GK17534@digitalkingdom.org> <20110105220532.GN17534@digitalkingdom.org> <4D25D915.9080305@lojban.org> <4D25F6F2.7050205@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F6F2.7050205@gmail.com> X-Original-Sender: lojbab@lojban.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 68.230.240.9 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of lojbab@lojban.org) smtp.mail=lojbab@lojban.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed And Rosta wrote: > In English, logical scope tends to be ambiguous, at least within the > same clause. So English "not A, B and C" can mean "It is not the case > that each of A,B,C is the case" or "For each x, where x is one of A,B,C, > it is not the case that x is the case". > > Unless it has been fixed by recent BPFK action, Lojban has *exactly the > same ambiguity* with regard to logical scope between elements that are > not explicitly prenexed. (At least Lojban has the option of prenexing to > eradicate ambiguity, but it is an option almost never used and that if > often used would be received with opprobrium as stylistically > objectionable.) I disagree as to the opprobrium. It is precisely where such disambiguation is necessary and desirable that it should be used. Having the mechanism means that when it should be used, it CAN be used. This is precisely the same as Lojban having optional tense and number. The mechanisms are there when the distinction is important, but otherwise can be left to pragmatics. lojbab - Bob LeChevalier lojbab@lojban.org www.lojban.org President and Founder, The Logical Language Group, Inc. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.