From lojban+bncCNuStaWoDxCqiqjpBBoECXJ8hA@googlegroups.com Sun Jan 09 10:58:04 2011 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Pc0Sk-0007KQ-LM; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 10:58:04 -0800 Received: by wwb34 with SMTP id 34sf20858339wwb.16 for ; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 10:57:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:message-id:date :from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ABWvAqkDJm6maf/yBd+bnlEv3X+41n1U8EK7L7zsg4Y=; b=3XTPoVfvYf8vqyGK+nacOKY9zmAozkmzgqQBu5XbYjsB+4rqsjHGvl9Y3DAvbEWky8 6XYdl1XrsyNj7nB43VDkn0xnC//VfPCZF9OMjJCtX8rV3W81OaEXgomxlpdBgotgl2MH VrZCFA2umgU/aimGYWNHMheHMjiuEpzsCNELs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:date:from:user-agent :mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=UsoibUJIaOB/JpfT+kUV6mULa/p/QcA8rC7t8rbCkgfT7x053xedWU9nD3boVwuIsN qee37eI+BIzXm8UIyOuzPMZcbgDWTWvThwbvnNSqXIusbFMukYLJXgeR0mORFQYquD6O t/DAmPwURZm61nUTwA3w4mqB/vr3Kqo+dSoAo= Received: by 10.216.20.208 with SMTP id p58mr195521wep.4.1294599466134; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 10:57:46 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.226.148 with SMTP id b20ls10434866weq.0.p; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 10:57:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.163.83 with SMTP id z61mr69221wek.8.1294599464972; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 10:57:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.163.83 with SMTP id z61mr69220wek.8.1294599464958; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 10:57:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wy0-f180.google.com (mail-wy0-f180.google.com [74.125.82.180]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id h6si2306054wes.3.2011.01.09.10.57.43; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 10:57:43 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.180 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.180; Received: by wyb28 with SMTP id 28so18752397wyb.25 for ; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 10:57:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.132.77 with SMTP id a13mr17666223wbt.127.1294599381838; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 10:56:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.65] (87-194-76-177.bethere.co.uk [87.194.76.177]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f35sm19447479wbf.14.2011.01.09.10.56.19 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sun, 09 Jan 2011 10:56:19 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4D2A04D2.3030600@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2011 18:56:18 +0000 From: And Rosta User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.13) Gecko/20101207 Thunderbird/3.1.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Lojban is *NOT* broken! Stop saying that! (was Re: [lojban] Re: Vote for the Future Global Language) References: <9114501.161.1294150198377.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqhy19> <7c0687a1-deba-495a-9760-95d1d0649423@t8g2000prh.googlegroups.com> <20110105165231.GK17534@digitalkingdom.org> <20110105220532.GN17534@digitalkingdom.org> <4D25D915.9080305@lojban.org> <4D25F6F2.7050205@gmail.com> <4D299EA9.7030109@lojban.org> In-Reply-To: <4D299EA9.7030109@lojban.org> X-Original-Sender: and.rosta@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.180 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=and.rosta@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG, On 09/01/2011 11:40: > And Rosta wrote: >> In English, logical scope tends to be ambiguous, at least within the sam= e clause. So English "not A, B and C" can mean "It is not the case that eac= h of A,B,C is the case" or "For each x, where x is one of A,B,C, it is not = the case that x is the case". >> >> Unless it has been fixed by recent BPFK action, Lojban has *exactly the = same ambiguity* with regard to logical scope between elements that are not = explicitly prenexed. (At least Lojban has the option of prenexing to eradic= ate ambiguity, but it is an option almost never used and that if often used= would be received with opprobrium as stylistically objectionable.) > > I disagree as to the opprobrium. It is precisely where such > disambiguation is necessary and desirable that it should be used. > Having the mechanism means that when it should be used, it CAN be used. > > This is precisely the same as Lojban having optional tense and number. > The mechanisms are there when the distinction is important, but > otherwise can be left to pragmatics. Optional tense and number is not the same as optional disambiguation, IMO. = Optional tense and number is simply a question of how much information to i= nclude in one's propositions, and should be a decision solely for the user,= not forced by the language design. In principle, the principal attraction of a logical language is that it sho= uld be unambiguous by default, as unambiguous as it would be to speak/write= predicate logic formulas. Lojban's ambiguities could be (or have been) fix= ed quite straightforwardly by adopting the xorxesian scope rules (and also = xorlo). Its more enduring problem IMO is the painfulness of encoding recurr= ing variables (i.e. argument values that appear in multiple places in a pro= position); it's so much easier just to resort to vagueness and use implicit= zo'e. The difficult part of designing a logical language is to make it unp= ainful to use even when using its logical capabilities. --And. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.