From lojban+bncCNuStaWoDxCwj6jpBBoE9WdA9w@googlegroups.com Sun Jan 09 11:08:47 2011 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Pc0d9-0007p6-Po; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 11:08:47 -0800 Received: by wwb34 with SMTP id 34sf20862528wwb.16 for ; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 11:08:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:message-id:date :from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=79qduIhYgIejSFVsZEgROb3ptD0r5CY+IduZd+lPNas=; b=dZwf8cAFF22XgyTh36ZFGsc9M6l9U2Y1OdBLsX17rNfWQXgkiv6NmI+iBRL+E10NOH wEHb5b53WWo0PiAi8wLxxsAVTso0GUzUDonWhwbY7+Waf3iDb+4Wli5aItVwNbrpS+I0 2GI7gpa0QzsM7opmv0Xhv2axsXwPexRsxq5ks= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:date:from:user-agent :mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=og2XGBxJLDIUWiQA5bKqAf4ehdbiOxgapSKfA00BmsqBb8fJ6LDGaN13v4poHyVrkr SfEvITJaUKjB4TlLrLHgNtfiulVcjl/WsJtm3P797xLxwnl5GCmsHM3uZ6/pLemwq8m/ qJQoHEvZRefRjxTOCVR7xH6WjG5i2ew7M3PaE= Received: by 10.216.72.65 with SMTP id s43mr268774wed.1.1294600112275; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 11:08:32 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.184.76 with SMTP id cj12ls5435875wbb.3.p; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 11:08:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.146.210 with SMTP id i18mr145330wbv.8.1294600111098; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 11:08:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.146.210 with SMTP id i18mr145329wbv.8.1294600111051; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 11:08:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ww0-f51.google.com (mail-ww0-f51.google.com [74.125.82.51]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id m15si4416122wbg.1.2011.01.09.11.08.30; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 11:08:30 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.51 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.51; Received: by wwe15 with SMTP id 15so18799156wwe.20 for ; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 11:08:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.132.77 with SMTP id a13mr17673206wbt.127.1294600091969; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 11:08:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.65] (87-194-76-177.bethere.co.uk [87.194.76.177]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 11sm19456483wbj.1.2011.01.09.11.08.10 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sun, 09 Jan 2011 11:08:11 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4D2A0799.7000809@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2011 19:08:09 +0000 From: And Rosta User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.13) Gecko/20101207 Thunderbird/3.1.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Cake, Pie or Ice Cream? References: <9114501.161.1294150198377.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqhy19> <673286.9022.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <294930.94884.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4D299D75.9090608@lojban.org> <4D29FF11.4080306@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: and.rosta@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.51 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=and.rosta@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jorge Llamb=EDas, On 09/01/2011 18:52: > On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 3:31 PM, And Rosta wrote: >> Jorge Llamb=EDas, On 09/01/2011 14:44: >>> >>> You don't spell out the solution. Presumably it was something like: >>> >>> do djica ma poi cmima ... ce ... ce ... ce ... >>> >>> But you don't really need to use sets, you could also say: >>> >>> do djica ma poi me ... .a ... .a ... .a ... >> >> Symmetrical connectives reduce logically to quantification over sets. >> "A or B (or C)" =3D "at least one from {A,B(,C)}" >> "A and B (and C)" =3D "each one from {A,B(,C)}" > > Yes. > >> "A xor B (xor C)" =3D "exactly one from {A,B(,C)}" > > Not really. At least it's not very clear what you mean by "A xor B (xor C= )" > > If A, B and C are propositions, and "xor" is the usual binary > connective, then "A xor B xor C", with either left or right grouping, > means "either exactly one or all three of A, B, C". (More generally, > adding more "xor"s, any odd number of the propositions.) But probably > "... xor ... xor ..." is not meant to be the composition of two binary > connectives. Yes, I know, but hadn't wanted to distract from my main point, which is tha= t "xor" is an elaboration of "exactly one from", albeit an elaboration that= works only for sets with certain cardinalities. > >> alternatival OR is: >> >> "A alt-or B (alt-or C)" =3D "which one(s) from {A,B(,C)}" >> and for the alternatival exclusive OR: >> "A alt-xor B (alt-xor C)" =3D "which one from {A,B(,C)}" >> >> So I'd argue that "do djica ma poi cmima ... ce ... ce ... ce ..." is >> logically the most basic. > > I'm not sure I understand the argument. "ma poi cmima X" and "ma poi > me Y", where X is the set of referents of Y, are exactly equivalent. > Why is one more basic than the other? I mean that because logical connectives reduce to quantifiers, the logicall= y most basic Lojban form (out of the one with "ce" and the one with "a") do= esn't use 'logical connectives' but rather uses quantifiers and, where nece= ssary, extensionally defined sets (i.e. sets defined by a list of their mem= bers). My general line of thinking is that when faced with the question "How do yo= u say X in Lojban", you should first of all establish the answer to "How do= you say X in predicate logic". --And. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.