From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCblKjpBBoEMJ7ziA@googlegroups.com Sun Jan 09 11:19:07 2011 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Pc0n8-00082B-Lv; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 11:19:06 -0800 Received: by vws1 with SMTP id 1sf10836676vws.16 for ; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 11:18:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=gU7AFkbt7CC8R79Blkgjlk1avWZdz9ZpBdu6266fpOU=; b=xTQ7dSBkghYSP+RzdT1k8LuQnJnvLM58k7E2lPHGZqz8k3tFxVGYMUv6965oH6qHmT xlz2YKlvavuy7y8+SAD5wg2Yqw+tLhkoOZmO2L19jZijbc46gO9tHj/uG60e3xO4YYkt YokBV7k3S4J0zwgT4Zvdev0iFvQ7eeqmLexhw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=dZYFXPZ/EX5YMNs33HICBvFJTKGlewnGE5YaasqDENu7C8TuYi0Ey5aMEAjougOjaW +iB4Dh9wiNigL7II2hb1ue2jXJGe8zrERWwQ5zZM3WwuAK5Tk7k3RO+LvhX2UyCn2JEv oMx4jQpsozcdhbZrNvRnRn+l38u9w4T+372EQ= Received: by 10.220.180.205 with SMTP id bv13mr1153565vcb.4.1294600731461; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 11:18:51 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.89.74 with SMTP id d10ls2441581vcm.5.p; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 11:18:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.220.201.76 with SMTP id ez12mr5648452vcb.3.1294600730509; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 11:18:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.220.201.76 with SMTP id ez12mr5648451vcb.3.1294600730476; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 11:18:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.123]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id p11si1722504vcf.10.2011.01.09.11.18.49; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 11:18:49 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.123 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.123; Received: (qmail 72705 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Jan 2011 19:17:45 -0000 Message-ID: <738079.72692.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: zwZxqpwVM1nh9pVlpUIflX4OGNY.cwoLCGs3KQeVpAwmlsO VXP6jVimmle9DdN_UZjzMIW_DeD0bO689W3OjKDaqBGX2.sOdGLjvfWwDTjI Nkf_qlS4EN6N529m67drTc4qXstQSjPmfwtapXQb06GEDVgJtAKj6a2hwG0_ dscXwGMOS5NZeRfCaZylkeHCtf7lkaZ19Kmz_5IpECXxEwh0bIuxS7folTMC mm0MzQHFf..ixFBpCqQ2OaQ2bTRA8mseg4AR8Eobd63YTgvoPzjPCICW90AK .TAGGfxoUPMXOvMS4WkJ1VYzMS3CzfxF2FPcmFhXGP9B6hHgEh..KgYqvvZR wcghOHS7SgVAdMnDfVbgiUSj9QwV2uBGGEL46lDjN5ZNOTnDhwG7tjTGnuRc acUM8RXwe8b2wXA-- Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 11:17:45 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/553 YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.285259 References: <9114501.161.1294150198377.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqhy19> <673286.9022.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <294930.94884.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4D299D75.9090608@lojban.org> <4D29FF11.4080306@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2011 11:17:45 -0800 (PST) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Cake, Pie or Ice Cream? To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: <4D29FF11.4080306@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.123 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable But XOR doesn't continue to work with three elements (it's true on line one= ,=20 when all three components are true, for example). It gives rise to some=20 interesting results, I recall, but not the same as "exactly one of". ----- Original Message ---- From: And Rosta To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, January 9, 2011 12:31:45 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Cake, Pie or Ice Cream? Jorge Llamb=EDas, On 09/01/2011 14:44: > On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 8:35 AM, Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder > - LLG wrote: >> John E Clifford wrote: >> >>> The 'ji' solution to the choice question is very Logjamish; it is easy = to >>> picture JCB cackling with glee over it. But it raises (not "begs" >>> gawdammit) some further questions, all of which have been raised before= and >>> probably solved. But, I don't remember the solutions and they may not = be in >>> the consciousness of many less-than-decades Lojbanists: >>> 1. What is the question to which "cream", "sugar, "neither" or "both" = are >>> *answers*, not merely side remarks that happen to do the job answers ar= e >>> meant to do? > > The one I prefer is: > > lo kruji lo sukta zo'u do djica ma > "Cream, sugar: you want what?" > > The answers "lo kruji", "lo sukta", "noda", "roda". And if you want to > be less than helpful: "pada", "su'oda", "me'ida", and so on. [...] >> We devised a solution, which no one else seems to have mentioned. That >> solution was eventually generalized in a different sense, so I am not >> surprised that it was forgotten. >> >> The solution avoided ji altogether, and asked for selection from a set w= ith >> members specified by lu'i/lu'u. More complex cases could be specified w= ith >> multiple set expressions (any 2 of set A) union (any 1 of set B). > > You don't spell out the solution. Presumably it was something like: > > do djica ma poi cmima ... ce ... ce ... ce ... > > But you don't really need to use sets, you could also say: > > do djica ma poi me ... .a ... .a ... .a ... Symmetrical connectives reduce logically to quantification over sets. "A or B (or C)" =3D "at least one from {A,B(,C)}" "A and B (and C)" =3D "each one from {A,B(,C)}" "A xor B (xor C)" =3D "exactly one from {A,B(,C)}" alternatival OR is: "A alt-or B (alt-or C)" =3D "which one(s) from {A,B(,C)}" and for the alternatival exclusive OR: "A alt-xor B (alt-xor C)" =3D "which one from {A,B(,C)}" So I'd argue that "do djica ma poi cmima ... ce ... ce ... ce ..." is logic= ally=20 the most basic. --And. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.