From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRCnmKjpBBoExCOPUQ@googlegroups.com Sun Jan 09 11:27:53 2011 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Pc0va-0003YD-Qn; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 11:27:53 -0800 Received: by wyb35 with SMTP id 35sf20930786wyb.16 for ; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 11:27:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Tgpgpt/RjVoMim1w2VMAazhJcR6N2iZs1o2IQ+rg56M=; b=UIAfPm7Gaf3wBlD5OV8wXmljdfr/X46HMxe8wCoYrnKI8q55Pw+iHJYv+kS1ajoxww qsGDHcOtAcHpIHYO3mtnMvnouJgNr1bTrMg3LoZsOKck/H+Z1TkW+HSH0CEm3Ua1K8mu p9Q3riJqx2KL01oLKq/NoRWJbTB98AHO+uI7w= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Ij6CPZi5cuPErfkVV85Dmg0tdnvztQwSrrLJF4mxdML7txd0wWcxhlOBalD+9SeyhZ bBWWXfeOFZJV+NoiOVTYgwMRTSQ8s5xEfINnzChtJBNegBsrquJR20r9Cq8vKLAdYeZO 7BpA2ROLyEUtBaZaTUuFtgJn79ALqKhg7Qtjw= Received: by 10.216.51.13 with SMTP id a13mr198472wec.19.1294601255571; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 11:27:35 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.62.75 with SMTP id x53ls10430507wec.3.p; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 11:27:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.157.7 with SMTP id n7mr202739wek.3.1294601254817; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 11:27:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.157.7 with SMTP id n7mr202738wek.3.1294601254800; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 11:27:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wy0-f180.google.com (mail-wy0-f180.google.com [74.125.82.180]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id l26si2307144weq.14.2011.01.09.11.27.33; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 11:27:33 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.180 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.180; Received: by mail-wy0-f180.google.com with SMTP id 28so21755929wyb.11 for ; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 11:27:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.20.16 with SMTP id d16mr2006941wbb.173.1294600974664; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 11:22:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.54.72 with HTTP; Sun, 9 Jan 2011 11:22:54 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4D2A0799.7000809@gmail.com> References: <9114501.161.1294150198377.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqhy19> <673286.9022.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <294930.94884.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4D299D75.9090608@lojban.org> <4D29FF11.4080306@gmail.com> <4D2A0799.7000809@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2011 16:22:54 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Cake, Pie or Ice Cream? From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.180 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 4:08 PM, And Rosta wrote: > Jorge Llamb=EDas, On 09/01/2011 18:52: >> >> If A, B and C are propositions, and "xor" is the usual binary >> connective, then "A xor B xor C", with either left or right grouping, >> means "either exactly one or all three of A, B, C". (More generally, >> adding more "xor"s, any odd number of the propositions.) But probably >> "... xor ... xor ..." is not meant to be the composition of two binary >> connectives. > > Yes, I know, but hadn't wanted to distract from my main point, which is t= hat > "xor" is an elaboration of "exactly one from", albeit an elaboration that > works only for sets with certain cardinalities. Only for one cardinality: 2. >> I'm not sure I understand the argument. "ma poi cmima X" and "ma poi >> me Y", where X is the set of referents of Y, are exactly equivalent. >> Why is one more basic than the other? > > I mean that because logical connectives reduce to quantifiers, Alternatively: quantifiers reduce to logical connectives. > the logically > most basic Lojban form (out of the one with "ce" and the one with "a") > doesn't use 'logical connectives' but rather uses quantifiers and, where > necessary, extensionally defined sets (i.e. sets defined by a list of the= ir > members). I see what you mean. Maybe I shouldn't have used connectives at all: do djica ma poi me ko'a jo'u ko'e jo'u ko'i ... That doesn't introduce any sets, but it is still an extensional list with the options. > My general line of thinking is that when faced with the question "How do = you > say X in Lojban", you should first of all establish the answer to "How do > you say X in predicate logic". Yes, predicate logic with plural reference. (There is a lingering problem with the "ce" version, since as far as I know it was never established whether "ko'a ce ko'e ce ko'i" is a set with three members, or one with two members, namely ko'i and the set {ko'a, ko'e}.) mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.